And with the tax credit, 28.5k

https://www.nissanusa.com/shopping-tools/build-price?models=nissan-leaf&modelYear=current-year

20k for the bolt after the tax credit

https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/shopping/configurator/summary?designCode=&make=chevrolet&model=bolt-ev&radius=2000&year=2023&zipCode=48362

See you just make no sense and just continue to argue for the sake. I brought up saving money, then you say anyone who can afford a tsla do not want to save money? Let me put this dumb statement in context and Im sure you will come up with something even dumber to refute.

Base model 3 with gov incentive costs around 35K before TTL
Model Y with gov incentive is around 47K before TTL.
per KBB The average new car in America sold for $48,043 in June 2022

SO I guess the avg american just don't like to save money. It seems to me that buying a tsla actually saves the avg buyer money at purchase and gas. I have saved about 15K in operating costs after 70K in my tesla vs most other SUVs.

"Most people can't afford your Tesla or your BMW...so I don't think you really get what matters to "most people"...

WRONG AGAIN, its starting to add up

The average American probably isn't buying a new vehicle much less paying additional for an EV. Used sales outnumber new around 3 to 1. If they are buying new they are buying something that costs less than 20k without having to worry about a tax credit they can apply for months down the road after getting a loan for full price of the vehicle.

Using average new car price sale as some figure for the average American makes no sense.

Ag with kids said:

---

I'm going to the beach now. Tide is up so I need 4wd...

I think I'll take my Chevy Bolt because I like getting stuck in the sand.

---

Your just incredibly ridiculous and should just stop. If an EV could do everything an ICE can at a cheaper price, you would argue that it cant fly. Just ridiculous. Everything you say is wrong. I feel for your kids and spouse trying to have any intelligent discussion with you.

So 1 in 4 buy new, seems like a large subset. The point I am debating is his assertion that people who buy a tsla which is cheaper than the avg new car do not care about saving money. Just dumb

But to your point, lets do the math.

Avg new car 48K. The average one-to-five-year-old car cost an average of $34,291. Assume 3 used:1 New would put the avg of all cars at $37,700 which is still more than a Brand new Model 3. The Avg used is slightly less than a new Model 3 at 35K with incentives.

Gas savings alone in the 1st yr would make the model 3 a cheaper care to own than the avg ICE used car.

So anyone discussing the money side is just wrong. Sure anyone looking for a 20K car will not be looking at a tesla but they sure would not be looking at any decent used care either.

Medaggie said:

---

So 1 in 4 buy new, seems like a large subset. The point I am debating is his assertion that people who buy a tsla which is cheaper than the avg new car do not care about saving money. Just dumb

---

I don't see where he said what you're claiming. This is the closest I can find but it's objectively true.

Quote:

---

The EVs (and his BMW) are more expensive than most people can afford for a vehicle.

So...saving some money over several years will not be on their radar...

---

hph6203 said:

---

EVs are screwed if the electrical grid gets borked by an EMP. An EMP powerful enough to upend the electrical grid is going to have more deleterious effects than just EVs not working. ICE vehicles, even if they survive the initial burst, aren't going to operate for long with shortages in fuel. People are going to rapidly run out of food and water. Sewage is going to cover the streets. It's gonna be a real ****ty situation.

---

Read this book and the sequels............It will get your attention!

You are living a life of some privilege if you think $28k for a car is cheap. I have many a family member who have never paid more than $5k for a ride, never sniffing anything new.

And they could probably duck tape a 20yo suburban together and make it run on coal.

Now we want to take that independence away and say you must plug in to an authorized outlet who connects to an authorized chip and check your credit before juicing up.

Gas and combustibles don't care who burns them nor do they report who burnt them.

Viva la resistance!

Hell yeah, glad we can get back to coal powered cars.

Another recall!

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/04/business/tesla-recall-model-y-bolts/index.html

That recall is limited to the cars owned by liberals!

Medaggie said:

---

See you just make no sense and just continue to argue for the sake. I brought up saving money, then you say anyone who can afford a tsla do not want to save money? Let me put this dumb statement in context and Im sure you will come up with something even dumber to refute.

Base model 3 with gov incentive costs around 35K before TTL
Model Y with gov incentive is around 47K before TTL.
per KBB The average new car in America sold for $48,043 in June 2022

SO I guess the avg american just don't like to save money. It seems to me that buying a tsla actually saves the avg buyer money at purchase and gas. I have saved about 15K in operating costs after 70K in my tesla vs most other SUVs.

"Most people can't afford your Tesla or your BMW...so I don't think you really get what matters to "most people"...

WRONG AGAIN, its starting to add up

---

Ok...so your reading comprehension sucks.

I did NOT say that.

I said that most people CAN'T ****ING AFFORD YOUR CARS.

I'm sure they'd like to save money. But, when they can't afford the car in the first place, the the savings you're claiming are meaningless to them.

But, when you have a BMW X5, it's obvious you're a "man of the people" who understands how the common man lives...

BTW...the average new car price includes all the trucks that are sold (the F150 is the most sold vehicle in the US). Those aren't the kind of people who would think about buying an EV.

I swear...some of you people need to get out of your bubble and hang out with people who aren't rich like you are...

Medaggie said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

I'm going to the beach now. Tide is up so I need 4wd...

I think I'll take my Chevy Bolt because I like getting stuck in the sand.

---

Your YOU'RE just incredibly ridiculous and should just stop. If an EV could do everything an ICE can at a cheaper price, you would argue that it cant fly. Just ridiculous. Everything you say is wrong. I feel for your kids and spouse trying to have any intelligent discussion with you.

---

I was joking.

I took my Wrangler, dropped it in 4Hi and drove in the fun soft sand.

And you make me giggle with your superiority complex.

I can GUARANTEE you that most of what I've said is right.

And I hope you DON'T have kids...having a judgmental person like you ruling over them would be kind of sad for them...

Can you imagine a large apartment complex with its parking garage full of electric cars? Imagine the infrastructure that would have to be in place to coordinate time and location to fully charge vehicles.

Maybe the upside is you have providers who drive their trucks full of electrical power and charge your vehicle in space.

People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

Teslas are expensive. They're built for performance and technology. BYD is selling new vehicles in China with 340 miles of range for $33,000. They get ~3% margin. Teslas get a 30% margin as compared to a company like Ford that gets sub 10%. Lower price models will enter the market just like they have in China where the proportion of people that can afford a $50,000 car is way lower.

Teslas are expensive because there is demand in excess of their capacity to build them. There is excess demand because in the same class of vehicle they are cheaper to operate and have more performance than their combustion counterparts.

As the market expands, margins will contract and prices will come down. Contrary to ICE vehicles that are on a perpetual rise in price. In the last decade the average new car price has risen 54%.

Compare that to a 2012 Model S which at the time cost $95,000, had 230 miles of range, charged at a maximum of 75kw and did 0-60 in 4.6 seconds.

And

A 2022 Model S which costs $95,000 has 405 miles of range, charges at, soon to be 350 kw, and does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds.

EVs are getting better, they are getting cheaper. Cheap combustion vehicles are still available to buy and will be for a long time. Used combustion vehicles are still available to buy and will be for decades.

Tesla is about 3 months away from breaking ground on a new factory in Mexico where they will be building their next generation vehicles on their next generation vehicle platform. They claim that platform can reduce the build cost of the vehicle by ~50%. Meaning it will almost certainly cost less than $30,000 with no incentive.

Now imagine a vehicle that uses a smaller battery, a less powerful motor, does away with the 15" touch screen display, full self driving computer, 8 cameras, radar, gps, has cloth interior and you're talking about a vehicle that any new car buyer can afford. Those will later trickle into the used market.

And before anyone comments that there won't be a robust used EV market the suggestion that EVs die sooner than ICE vehicles is resultant from bad battery management engineering done by Nissan with their early Leaf models. They didn't properly thermally manage their battery packs which caused more rapid degradation.

These vehicles are going to last 200,000+ miles and the proportion of vehicles that last that long is going to be higher because the owner doesn't have to keep up with a maintenance schedule.

FCBlitz said:

---

Can you imagine a large apartment complex with its parking garage full of electric cars? Imagine the infrastructure that would have to be in place to coordinate time and location to fully charge vehicles.

Maybe the upside is you have providers who drive their trucks full of electrical power and charge your vehicle in space.

---

My apartment building parking garage installed chargers on all of the spaces a few months ago. There is now one electric charger per two parking spaces. I'm in a big city. It's become a selling point for apartments and employers to have car chargers.

Infrastructure wise, the power grids might lag behind, and I expect a lot of smart grid management to be put in place to reduce charging during peak demand hours, then resume when grid demand is low.

Ag with kids said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

I'm going to the beach now. Tide is up so I need 4wd...

I think I'll take my Chevy Bolt because I like getting stuck in the sand.

---

Your YOU'RE just incredibly ridiculous and should just stop. If an EV could do everything an ICE can at a cheaper price, you would argue that it cant fly. Just ridiculous. Everything you say is wrong. I feel for your kids and spouse trying to have any intelligent discussion with you.

---

I was joking.

I took my Wrangler, dropped it in 4Hi and drove in the fun soft sand.

And you make me giggle with your superiority complex.

I can GUARANTEE you that most of what I've said is right.

And I hope you DON'T have kids...having a judgmental person like you ruling over them would be kind of sad for them...

---

Jeep makes electric jeeps too.

This conversation is getting the same sort of vibe as ObamaCare. The advantages of EV's are so so obvious to everyone that they will soon compel everyone to use them.

Well said.

bmks270 said:

---

FCBlitz said:

---

Can you imagine a large apartment complex with its parking garage full of electric cars? Imagine the infrastructure that would have to be in place to coordinate time and location to fully charge vehicles.

Maybe the upside is you have providers who drive their trucks full of electrical power and charge your vehicle in space.

---

My apartment building parking garage installed chargers on all of the spaces a few months ago. There is now one electric charger per two parking spaces. I'm in a big city. It's become a selling point for apartments and employers to have car chargers.

Infrastructure wise, the power grids might lag behind, and I expect a lot of smart grid management to be put in place to reduce charging during peak demand hours, then resume when grid demand is low.

---

How big of a complex? New construction or existing? Care to link to an apartment building doing this?

There is in process or maybe in place by now for fair housing standards maintained by HUD to include a requirements for electric charging.

Though according to Teslag and a user named after a college town in Kansas say that poor folks can charge their Teslas with same charge they use for their vape pens. The technology is amazing.

A quick google search has an apt complex on Lake Travis (doubt HUD) that is building 13 dedicated charges as an add on amenity. The cost to put one of these Level 2 cost me $1000 so I am sure it is probably half the cost when done at scale grouped together.

Apt complexes are smart and know they can recoup their $$ quickly. People pay $100+/mo for dedicated garage and Tsla owners would be happy to pay $100/mo for a dedicated charger. Payback time is much quicker with a smaller footprint vs a dedicated garage taking 2-3x as much space.

From the renter's standpoint, it would be cost neutral to pay $100 for a dedicated level 2. Electricity runs 12-15 cents vs 30+ cents/KW at a supercharger. Everytime you do a full charge, you are essentially saving about $20 which is equates to 5 full charging or about 1200 miles a month.




Tacara Steiner Ranch Apartments a brand new Northwest Austin community near Lake Travis raised the bar and took it one step further.

In addition to their public EV charging station outside of the community's clubhouse Tacara is installing 13 private-use Level 2 charging station outlets as an optional luxury amenity for their residents. These private charging stations are located in direct-access attached garages and detached garages throughout the community and assigned/specific to the resident renting only which guarantees an available charging station 24/7/365.

Quote:

---

Though according to Teslag and a user named after a college town in Kansas say that poor folks can charge their Teslas with same charge they use for their vape pens. The technology is amazing.

---

Wtf are you babbling about? I've said on multiple occasions that that EV's are a poor choice for the poor and those who live in apartments.

bmks270 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

I'm going to the beach now. Tide is up so I need 4wd...

I think I'll take my Chevy Bolt because I like getting stuck in the sand.

---

Your YOU'RE just incredibly ridiculous and should just stop. If an EV could do everything an ICE can at a cheaper price, you would argue that it cant fly. Just ridiculous. Everything you say is wrong. I feel for your kids and spouse trying to have any intelligent discussion with you.

---

I was joking.

I took my Wrangler, dropped it in 4Hi and drove in the fun soft sand.

And you make me giggle with your superiority complex.

I can GUARANTEE you that most of what I've said is right.

And I hope you DON'T have kids...having a judgmental person like you ruling over them would be kind of sad for them...

---

Jeep makes electric jeeps too.

---

the 4xe is hybrid currently...

Ag with kids said:

---

bmks270 said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

I'm going to the beach now. Tide is up so I need 4wd...

I think I'll take my Chevy Bolt because I like getting stuck in the sand.

---

Your YOU'RE just incredibly ridiculous and should just stop. If an EV could do everything an ICE can at a cheaper price, you would argue that it cant fly. Just ridiculous. Everything you say is wrong. I feel for your kids and spouse trying to have any intelligent discussion with you.

---

I was joking.

I took my Wrangler, dropped it in 4Hi and drove in the fun soft sand.

And you make me giggle with your superiority complex.

I can GUARANTEE you that most of what I've said is right.

And I hope you DON'T have kids...having a judgmental person like you ruling over them would be kind of sad for them...

---

Jeep makes electric jeeps too.

---

the 4xe is hybrid currently...

---

Plug in hybrids are even better.

GAC06 said:

---

People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

---

The $20K EVs are the size of Mini Coopers. But, I guess if that's what you like. I don't.

Hey...if people want to buy them, more power to them (well, as long as they don't stress the grid and take power from ME)...

But, most normal sized EVs are pretty expensive compared to like sized ICE vehicles. It's whatever though. I'm not against them. I'm just not so enamored by them that I'm willing to ignore all the different challenges that they bring.

Big step-changes in vehicle design. 48v architecture, hairpin stator, no rare earth in motors, 100% in-house electronics, modular whole vehicle assembly. Can’t wait to get a next Gen @Tesla @elonmusk @live_munro pic.twitter.com/cAtHWES96V

— Cory Steuben (@CorySteuben) March 1, 2023

Some interesting news. Sorry, I don't really keep up with this thread, if repetitive.

• cheaper labor
• Sonora lithium mine next door
• Mexico w/ many free trade agreements
• production qualifies for Inflation Reduction Act
• Monterrey is business + economic hub for Northern Mexico
• Mexico pushing for renewable + sustainable energy economy

Makes perfect… https://t.co/DnEKZXC9lr

— Dillon Loomis (@DillonLoomis22) March 2, 2023

The Elon Tigre's soccer club memes made me laugh.

That's nice and all, but didn't you hear? Tesla is finished!

Been awhile since it was announced, but they're also refining lithium in Corpus and constructing their own cathodes in Austin. They're basically working to localize all production to their delivery locations, or at the least the region. Reducing reliance on China.

Rumored to be a sub $30k vehicle, perhaps as low as $25k, and that ground breaking will be around 3 months from now. They asked Tesla's head of factory development when he expects the factory to start production and he said their goal is to go from groundbreaking to production faster than they built their Shanghai factory. That took 9 months.

There's a slide in their presentation that suggests the vehicle price would end up being around 70% of the base Model 3, which would put it at right around $30,000, after tax incentives that'd put it around $22,500. About as much as a base model Corolla on sticker and less than 1/2 the operating cost.

There's also a slide in their presentation that suggests that in the future they're going to have induction (wireless) charging of their vehicles where you drive your car into your parking space, stop it over a pad on the ground and it charges without you having to plug it in. That isn't a theoretical technology, there are already companies that have demonstrated the technology is comparable than a direct connection.

Thx, I think wireless charging for cars is interesting. The scientific fact of the matter, to me, is that for a huge battery to use such a mechanism would result in a lot of heat, which for a car could be managed via cooling systems (as is the case already for charging) but this would represent again a further increase in electricity demands for such vehicles/chargers, net.

Keep in mind, that today to charge a 100kVA battery you need something like 115kva of juice, due to charging losses. I'd imagine charging losses for an induction charger for a vehicle battery pack as found in Tesla's would have to approach 30 percent.

If I am someday forced/compelled to get an electric car, I would prefer it not have to be 'plugged in' via an expensive (and sometimes dangerous if worn) cable system, but the increased thermal/electrical risks of an induction charger will be interesting to study/see play out in the real world.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

---

The $20K EVs are the size of Mini Coopers. But, I guess if that's what you like. I don't.

Hey...if people want to buy them, more power to them (well, as long as they don't stress the grid and take power from ME)...

But, most normal sized EVs are pretty expensive compared to like sized ICE vehicles. It's whatever though. I'm not against them. I'm just not so enamored by them that I'm willing to ignore all the different challenges that they bring.

---

I backed over one at HEB the other day in my Lariat.

I did leave a note saying I was sorry.

Urban Ag said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

---

The $20K EVs are the size of Mini Coopers. But, I guess if that's what you like. I don't.

Hey...if people want to buy them, more power to them (well, as long as they don't stress the grid and take power from ME)...

But, most normal sized EVs are pretty expensive compared to like sized ICE vehicles. It's whatever though. I'm not against them. I'm just not so enamored by them that I'm willing to ignore all the different challenges that they bring.

---

I backed over one at HEB the other day in my Lariat.

I did leave a note saying I was sorry.

---

They claim 90% efficiency grid to battery. It's my understanding that while charging EVs already operate a coolant loop, even on 120v, to maintain longevity of the battery, though it might not be able to keep up with the additional heat at the current rate it operates at. I know for sure it's used during the Supercharging. Just not sure if it's necessary at the lower energy transfer rates.

On a positive note, the "Sun City Democrats" bumper sticker was still visible, so there's that.

Ag with kids said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

---

The $20K EVs are the size of Mini Coopers. But, I guess if that's what you like. I don't.

Hey...if people want to buy them, more power to them (well, as long as they don't stress the grid and take power from ME)...

But, most normal sized EVs are pretty expensive compared to like sized ICE vehicles. It's whatever though. I'm not against them. I'm just not so enamored by them that I'm willing to ignore all the different challenges that they bring.

---

You made a crappy argument that cost savings from not buying gas didn't count because Teslas are too expensive for poor people. I pointed out that there are affordable EV's that could make the same trip he described and still offer the savings. You flailed around a while arguing about the costs of those vehicles until facts prevailed again. Now your argument is that economy cars are small? Yeah dude, it's the cheapest EV for sale, it's not going to be a Mercedes S class.