aggievaulter07 said:

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WHOOP!'91 said:

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I would like to consider a Tesla or other EV, but their quality ratings continue to bring up the rear in Consumer Reports and JD Power ratings. That many mechanical problems in a car without a transmission or ICE seems like a pretty bad thing.

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No attitude intended here, but go look up who owns Consume Reports...

EDIT: Sorry. I used the wrong word. Go look up who Consumer Reports "Philanthropic Partners" are...

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OK, but what lab or publication can I review that would say something different?

WHOOP!'91 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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WHOOP!'91 said:

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I would like to consider a Tesla or other EV, but their quality ratings continue to bring up the rear in Consumer Reports and JD Power ratings. That many mechanical problems in a car without a transmission or ICE seems like a pretty bad thing.

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No attitude intended here, but go look up who owns Consume Reports...

EDIT: Sorry. I used the wrong word. Go look up who Consumer Reports "Philanthropic Partners" are...

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OK, but what lab or publication can I review that would say something different?

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Go to YouTube and search anything with Sandy Munro and Tesla.

Do you not know who Sandy Munro is?

I don't ever bring up advertisement when it comes to these ratings as people become quite defensive. As Tsla doesn't advertise, it would kill any ratings company to put Tsla on top and their paid advertisers on the bottom. This is a quick way to be out of business.

The cliff fall was telling but something as telling is when an EV fire happens, its all over the news but when an ICE fire happens so much more commonly, nothing is mentioned.

I'll go a head and say it, Consumer Reports is in Ford and GM's pocket.

I feel Sandy is about as 3rd party neutral as it gets but as he is Pro Tsla when he takes the car apart, he is labeled a Tsla shill.

What is more telling to me is when Volkswagon & Ford CEOs openly state how far ahead Tsla is compared to any other maker.

VitruvianAg said:

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I'll go a head and say it, Consumer Reports is in Ford and GM's pocket.

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I won't argue that assertion. As a mostly disinterested bystander, I am not compelled to believe Sandy Munro over the publications I've referred to for decades. For one, wouldn't Sandy's perspectives and observations be based on a very limited set of data and test subjects?

Just adding my 2 cents...I would like to think a lot of people are like me and don't want to risk buying a car that is more likely than others to leave me on the side of the road.

WHOOP!'91 said:

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VitruvianAg said:

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I'll go a head and say it, Consumer Reports is in Ford and GM's pocket.

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I won't argue that assertion. As a mostly disinterested bystander, I am not compelled to believe Sandy Munro over the publications I've referred to for decades. For one, wouldn't Sandy's perspectives and observations be based on a very limited set of data and test subjects?

Just adding my 2 cents...I would like to think a lot of people are like me and don't want to risk buying a car that is more likely than others to leave me on the side of the road.

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This sounds like you have zero idea who Sandy Munro is. He's a former Ford engineer, who created a company that has been tearing cars down piece by piece, bolt by bolt, for decades with the purpose of generating reports for the auto makers for how to improve their manufacturing processes, and cut costs. The manufacturers pay him hundreds of thousands for each of these reports.

He's as highly regarded in the auto industry as it gets from an engineering and manufacturing standpoint.

WHOOP!'91 said:

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VitruvianAg said:

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I'll go a head and say it, Consumer Reports is in Ford and GM's pocket.

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I won't argue that assertion. As a mostly disinterested bystander, I am not compelled to believe Sandy Munro over the publications I've referred to for decades. For one, wouldn't Sandy's perspectives and observations be based on a very limited set of data and test subjects?

Just adding my 2 cents...I would like to think a lot of people are like me and don't want to risk buying a car that is more likely than others to leave me on the side of the road.

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I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly don't know who Sandy Munro is or Munro and Associates capabilities.

Look them up. Industries (leandesign.com) This is their website. And like I said just go to YT, watch, listen and learn.

They do forensic analysis of all types of industries including Automotive, Aerospace, Defense and Electronics. MA is CR on Roids! Sandy is no liberal by any means.

Quote:

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If it's really important to you don't just listen to the reports or even me - go drive one. Come back and report your experience.

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...and if any of you guys are in the DFW area, DM me. You're welcome to drive mine, and I'll buy you a beer afterwords. Even if we disagree on this subject. We can still bond over Aggie Football.

Medaggie said:

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smitshot said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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These guys will never change their line of thinking, regardless how many times we have to correct their false assumptions, and incorrect numbers with real data, stats, and information.

Their heels are dug in, bros.

You know what they say...

You can lead an old ICE head to water...

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I agree. It's ok to say I prefer an ICE car over an EV. I get it. But to say that EV percentages will top out at 20-25% is either being a troll or just plain (and I'm being nice here) ignorant. The world is literally going going to hit 20% next year and then I guess it will just "magically" stop growing. As every auto manufacturer on the planet is spending billions on catching Tesla by 2026. Tesla's newest gigantic factories are just starting literally starting to get ramped up. As prices have come down and Tesla announces its next-gen platform next month which will be priced more affordably to the masses, demand will continue to sky rocket without any juice from government rebates.

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The 20-25% is all speculation and something not even worth arguing about as it becomes circular without any hard evidence on either side.

I do think that if battery does not limit production, EV will eventually surpass ICE by the end of this decade. Almost every automaker is converting their ICE brand to EV brand. Look at the SB commercials and you can see this. Even the high end sports performance V12 makers are trending towards EV. Hard to be a high end sports care when you are slower than a Model S at 1/10th the price.

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Yes, the 20-25% is speculation! No different than predicting EVs will continue to grow exponentially to infinity and beyond!

Sort of the point of a discussion board, no?

smitshot said:

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WHOOP!'91 said:

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I would like to consider a Tesla or other EV, but their quality ratings continue to bring up the rear in Consumer Reports and JD Power ratings. That many mechanical problems in a car without a transmission or ICE seems like a pretty bad thing.

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If you want a perfect fit and finish car on the outside go buy an Audi. Tesla is not there yet. You might find the left qtr panel gap is 1/16 of an inch wider than on the right. They are getting better every year. But under the cover - the actual motors themselves, drive train, battery management systems, performance is outstanding. If it's really important to you don't just listen to the reports or even me - go drive one. Come back and report your experience.

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I picked up my Model 3 on Saturday and I was pleasantly surprised that the paint (black) and fit seems to be perfect.

And count me as a person that from watching YT videos the past couple of years wouldn't trust a Tesla to drive me around without human input. Yet.

I have zero doubt that it will be safer than human driving eventually if it's not already.

fka ftc said:

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Medaggie said:

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smitshot said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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These guys will never change their line of thinking, regardless how many times we have to correct their false assumptions, and incorrect numbers with real data, stats, and information.

Their heels are dug in, bros.

You know what they say...

You can lead an old ICE head to water...

---

I agree. It's ok to say I prefer an ICE car over an EV. I get it. But to say that EV percentages will top out at 20-25% is either being a troll or just plain (and I'm being nice here) ignorant. The world is literally going going to hit 20% next year and then I guess it will just "magically" stop growing. As every auto manufacturer on the planet is spending billions on catching Tesla by 2026. Tesla's newest gigantic factories are just starting literally starting to get ramped up. As prices have come down and Tesla announces its next-gen platform next month which will be priced more affordably to the masses, demand will continue to sky rocket without any juice from government rebates.

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The 20-25% is all speculation and something not even worth arguing about as it becomes circular without any hard evidence on either side.

I do think that if battery does not limit production, EV will eventually surpass ICE by the end of this decade. Almost every automaker is converting their ICE brand to EV brand. Look at the SB commercials and you can see this. Even the high end sports performance V12 makers are trending towards EV. Hard to be a high end sports care when you are slower than a Model S at 1/10th the price.

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Yes, the 20-25% is speculation! No different than predicting EVs will continue to grow exponentially to infinity and beyond!

Sort of the point of a discussion board, no?

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There's a difference between speculation and intelligent forecasting.

PJYoung said:

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smitshot said:

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WHOOP!'91 said:

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I would like to consider a Tesla or other EV, but their quality ratings continue to bring up the rear in Consumer Reports and JD Power ratings. That many mechanical problems in a car without a transmission or ICE seems like a pretty bad thing.

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If you want a perfect fit and finish car on the outside go buy an Audi. Tesla is not there yet. You might find the left qtr panel gap is 1/16 of an inch wider than on the right. They are getting better every year. But under the cover - the actual motors themselves, drive train, battery management systems, performance is outstanding. If it's really important to you don't just listen to the reports or even me - go drive one. Come back and report your experience.

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I picked up my Model 3 on Saturday and I was pleasantly surprised that the paint (black) and fit seems to be perfect.

And count me as a person that from watching YT videos the past couple of years wouldn't trust a Tesla to drive me around without human input. Yet.

I have zero doubt that it will be safer than human driving eventually if it's not already.

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That's awesome news! Sounds like the model 3 now on year 5 of manufacturing is where it needs to be on external fit and finish. I bought my wife a performance Model Y last Fall and it still had some minor panel gap differences but man does it drive like a high powered jet. I wanted her to drive the Model Y for a few months and compare it to her Lexus RX350 before making the final decision. After driving the Model Y it took some getting used to with the regenerative braking but she couldn't believe how clunky and unresponsive the Lexus felt when she went back to driving it. We are officially selling the last ICE vehicle we will ever own.

You are going to love driving the Model 3. Four years later and I still look forward to driving mine every day. More so than any car I've ever owned … and I'm in my 50's. It's still as tight and responsive as the day I bought it. Cheers!!!

Correct. Let us know when you figure it out.

Since this seems to bring together the most Musk haters/fanboys, here is a somewhat comical but I guess mostly true chronology of his personal life.

Whatever man, keep it together though.

SIAP.

Not really germane to the OP, but definitely relevant to the posts on charging over the last handful of pages.

https://money.yahoo.com/tesla-faces-7-5-billion-114110259.html

Quote:

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. . .
Tesla could find itself locked out of $7.5 billion in Biden administration subsidies if it fails to open its EV charging network up to competitors, according to a Reuters report.

The automaker's SuperCharger network has more stations in the US than any other charging company, but they can connect only to plugs used by Tesla cars.

But next week, the Department of Transportation will finish drafting a requirement that will put pressure on Tesla to add the charger used by rival electric-vehicle makers, Reuters reported Friday, citing administration officials.

If it doesn't, that could blow its chances of benefiting from the $7.5 billion in funding the Biden administration plans to lay out to increase the number of charging stations in the US.

"We do understand that Tesla is looking to tweak their system to be more open access. So, if they do reach that point and meet those eligibility requirements, they certainly will be eligible for funding," Stuart Anderson, head of Iowa's transportation development division, told Reuters.

Tesla has already had a boost from the Biden administration's EV push in February, when the DOT tweaked its $7,500 tax credit consumer incentive plan to include more eligible models by expanding the definition of an SUV. That increased the potential demand for some of Tesla's models.
. . .
Musk has spoken in the past about opening up the Supercharger network, but hasn't moved publicly to let others in. Tesla is dominant in chargers in the US, and it has a huge private network of more than 40,000 EV chargers globally.

Opening up that network to competitors like Ford, GM, and Rivian could take some of the shine off Tesla's brand, by removing its customers' exclusive use. On the other hand, it could eventually be a new revenue stream for Tesla in addition to any subsidy windfall.
. . .

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I believe Tesla has made it clear that they're open to opening up their network to other cars.

If I were getting an EV, it would be a Tesla. They dominate that market.

As to the chargers vs non-teslas, why hasn't someone made an adapter to convert Tesla to Car X?

BigRobSA said:

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If I were getting an EV, it would be a Tesla. They dominate that market.

As to the chargers vs non-teslas, why hasn't someone made an adapter to convert Tesla to Car X?

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It's not quite as simple as just using an adapter. Tesla Superchargers have no user interface. No way to run a credit card, etc. The Superchargers "just work" like Apple products. You just back up to one. Grab the cable, and plug it into your Tesla. The charger and the car communicate, and the credit card on your Tesla account automatically gets billed. There's really no user input needed. It all happens automatically.

That exchange of information wouldn't happen with a random other EV so the supercharger would never start charging, even with an adapter.

This will be fixed by Tesla allowing non-Tesla owners to get a Tesla account, and put a card on file, and then create some way for the user to be able to tell the mobile app which charger they are at, and what kind of adapter and car they have. Sounds easily doable for a company like Tesla. I fully expect it to work that way in the not-too-distant future.

aggievaulter07 said:

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BigRobSA said:

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If I were getting an EV, it would be a Tesla. They dominate that market.

As to the chargers vs non-teslas, why hasn't someone made an adapter to convert Tesla to Car X?

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It's not quite as simple as just using an adapter. Tesla Superchargers have no user interface. No way to run a credit card, etc. The Superchargers "just work" like Apple products. You just back up to one. Grab the cable, and plug it into your Tesla. The charger and the car communicate, and the credit card on your Tesla account automatically gets billed. There's really no user input needed. It all happens automatically.

That exchange of information wouldn't happen with a random other EV so the supercharger would never start charging, even with an adapter.

This will be fixed by Tesla allowing non-Tesla owners to get a Tesla account, and put a card on file, and then create some way for the user to be able to tell the mobile app which charger they are at, and what kind of adapter and car they have. Sounds easily doable for a company like Tesla. I fully expect it to work that way in the not-too-distant future.

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Thanks for the info. Interesante'! (<-Mexican for "interesting")

aggievaulter07 said:

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BigRobSA said:

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If I were getting an EV, it would be a Tesla. They dominate that market.

As to the chargers vs non-teslas, why hasn't someone made an adapter to convert Tesla to Car X?

---

It's not quite as simple as just using an adapter. Tesla Superchargers have no user interface. No way to run a credit card, etc. The Superchargers "just work" like Apple products. You just back up to one. Grab the cable, and plug it into your Tesla. The charger and the car communicate, and the credit card on your Tesla account automatically gets billed. There's really no user input needed. It all happens automatically.

That exchange of information wouldn't happen with a random other EV so the supercharger would never start charging, even with an adapter.

This will be fixed by Tesla allowing non-Tesla owners to get a Tesla account, and put a card on file, and then create some way for the user to be able to tell the mobile app which charger they are at, and what kind of adapter and car they have. Sounds easily doable for a company like Tesla. I fully expect it to work that way in the not-too-distant future.

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Meh, I can tap the chip on my card and get a soda from the vending machine or start the vacuum cleaner at the car wash. This doesn't seem like much of a challenge.

fka ftc said:

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Correct. Let us know when you figure it out.

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You said something as patently ridiculous as "it took 10 years for EVs to reach 10% of the market, that's why it'll cap at 20-25% of the market".

If you had told an auto analyst in 2012 that EVs would make up 10% of the market in 2022 they would have told you that you were insane and there's no way production on a new platform could be ramped that quickly, nor would the market shift that radically in that amount of time.

Your basis for your projections and criticisms is why people mock you. It's not, as you say, that you're an old fuddy duddy. It's that you run full speed confidently into statements not supported by your evidence.

The top two selling car models regardless of type in the 4th largest economy in the world is Tesla and it is not even close. I have no idea what the EV % would be if there was an overabundant of supply but currently %EV is a supply constraint and not a demand.

Just an opinion, but I feel within 5 yrs most two car urban SFH households will have atleast one EV. Unless the gov slaps some tax similar to gas, the cost savings is impossible to ignore.

The current cost for a standard range Model 3 with the $7500 incentive is $35,500. A mid range Camary XLE (32mpg) that lacks many features as the base model 3 is $31000.

After 3 yrs and 45K miles, gas and 6 oil changes will run you $5K. While 45K in the Model 3 would run about $1200 in electricity which puts them about equal.

Now buy a Camary high end hybrid that is priced right at 34K, then you are essentially paying the same amount as a Model 3 with worse specs, more costly to run. I see their hybrid only having a niche play.

California
1. Tesla Model Y 87,257
2. Tesla Model 3 78,934
3. Toyota RAV4 59,794
4. Toyota Camry 55,967
5. Ford F-Series 40,232

Medaggie said:

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The top two selling car models regardless of type in the 4th largest economy in the world is Tesla and it is not even close. I have no idea what the EV % would be if there was an overabundant of supply but currently %EV is a supply constraint and not a demand.

Just an opinion, but I feel within 5 yrs most two car urban SFH households will have atleast one EV. Unless the gov slaps some tax similar to gas, the cost savings is impossible to ignore.

The current cost for a standard range Model 3 with the $7500 incentive is $35,500. A mid range Camary XLE (32mpg) that lacks many features as the base model 3 is $31000.

After 3 yrs and 45K miles, gas and 6 oil changes will run you $5K. While 45K in the Model 3 would run about $1200 in electricity which puts them about equal.

Now buy a Camary high end hybrid that is priced right at 34K, then you are essentially paying the same amount as a Model 3 with worse specs, more costly to run. I see their hybrid only having a niche play.

California
1. Tesla Model Y 87,257
2. Tesla Model 3 78,934
3. Toyota RAV4 59,794
4. Toyota Camry 55,967
5. Ford F-Series 40,232

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Top 25 selling cars in US

So, CA accounts for 38% of all Model Y sales and 40% of all Model 3 sales. Is there something about CA that makes them any different than the rest of the US?

This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

Medaggie said:

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This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

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So...we can't apply that model of customer base and infrastructure to the rest of the country?

Ag with kids said:

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Medaggie said:

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This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

---

So...we can't apply that model of customer base and infrastructure to the rest of the country?

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Good grief. He's saying the "perfect" model. Tesla's are being sold out everywhere on the planet except the Sahara desert and maybe northern Arkansas. If you move to one of those areas then maybe you can avoid ever hearing about or seeing an EV again.

California banning gas powered cars in 2035, EU possibly at 2035 too. Many more likely to follow. Watch the blue states follow this soon.

Medaggie said:

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California banning gas powered cars in 2035, EU possibly at 2035 too. Many more likely to follow. Watch the blue states follow this soon.

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Welcome to Cuba, USA.

Medaggie said:

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California banning gas powered cars in 2035, EU possibly at 2035 too. Many more likely to follow. Watch the blue states follow this soon.

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I completely agree. There should be no banning of ICE vehicles. No sales percentage mandates and no tax rebates. Let the market naturally evolve. I am ok with incentivizing companies to build manufacturing facilities in the US to compete with China.

smitshot said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Medaggie said:

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This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

---

So...we can't apply that model of customer base and infrastructure to the rest of the country?

---

Good grief. He's saying the "perfect" model. Tesla's are being sold out everywhere on the planet except the Sahara desert and maybe northern Arkansas. If you move to one of those areas then maybe you can avoid ever hearing about or seeing an EV again.

---

Again...CA bought almost HALF of the EVs in the US. So, he explained why it worked for CALIFORNIA.

But, I was being a little smartass about how that model doesn't extend to the other 49 states...

How many ****ing times do I have to tell you people that I don't care if EVs get sold? I'm an engineer and I love cool tech. So, I'm not against them. I work with UAS and will be doing a lot of work with AAM. Many of those AAM UAS are EVs. Hell, all but one of our UAS platform is an EV.

However, every time anyone mentions some roadblock to EV adoption, the EV folks on here Poo Poo those roadblocks and handwave them away as if that's how **** works in the real world.

There are REAL issues that will hamper adoption. Until the EV folks actually accept they exist, I just shake my head because they're being myopic.

Ag with kids said:

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smitshot said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

Medaggie said:

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This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

---

So...we can't apply that model of customer base and infrastructure to the rest of the country?

---

Good grief. He's saying the "perfect" model. Tesla's are being sold out everywhere on the planet except the Sahara desert and maybe northern Arkansas. If you move to one of those areas then maybe you can avoid ever hearing about or seeing an EV again.

---

Again...CA bought almost HALF of the EVs in the US. So, he explained why it worked for CALIFORNIA.

But, I was being a little smartass about how that model doesn't extend to the other 49 states...

How many ****ing times do I have to tell you people that I don't care if EVs get sold? I'm an engineer and I love cool tech. So, I'm not against them. I work with UAS and will be doing a lot of work with AAM. Many of those AAM UAS are EVs. Hell, all but one of our UAS platform is an EV.

However, every time anyone mentions some roadblock to EV adoption, the EV folks on here Poo Poo those roadblocks and handwave them away as if that's how **** works in the real world.

There are REAL issues that will hamper adoption. Until the EV folks actually accept they exist, I just shake my head because they're being myopic.

---

I know the roadblocks and know EVs are not perfect. But for all the roadblocks, the Emergent household benefits are worth it thus I we have 1 EV, 1 ICE and our 3rd car for my daughter will be a TSLA.

Now I realize if we have 50% EV tomorrow, we would have utilities crashing, economies crashing from less gas tax, oil industry collapsing, etc causing lots of economic pain. But it will not happen tomorrow so really, I doesn't affect me enjoying the benefits of my EV.

Medaggie said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

smitshot said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

This is multifactorial and essentially the perfect environment for EVs esp Tesla

1. Tesla started in California
2. High income state
3. Weather best for range
4. Cal mandates for EV conversion including businesses
5. High gas prices
6. Superchargers everywhere
7. Affluent young who are techies
8. High population concentrated in large cities thus most drive locally

---

So...we can't apply that model of customer base and infrastructure to the rest of the country?

---

Good grief. He's saying the "perfect" model. Tesla's are being sold out everywhere on the planet except the Sahara desert and maybe northern Arkansas. If you move to one of those areas then maybe you can avoid ever hearing about or seeing an EV again.

---

Again...CA bought almost HALF of the EVs in the US. So, he explained why it worked for CALIFORNIA.

But, I was being a little smartass about how that model doesn't extend to the other 49 states...

How many ****ing times do I have to tell you people that I don't care if EVs get sold? I'm an engineer and I love cool tech. So, I'm not against them. I work with UAS and will be doing a lot of work with AAM. Many of those AAM UAS are EVs. Hell, all but one of our UAS platform is an EV.

However, every time anyone mentions some roadblock to EV adoption, the EV folks on here Poo Poo those roadblocks and handwave them away as if that's how **** works in the real world.

There are REAL issues that will hamper adoption. Until the EV folks actually accept they exist, I just shake my head because they're being myopic.

---

I know the roadblocks and know EVs are not perfect. But for all the roadblocks, the Emergent household benefits are worth it thus I we have 1 EV, 1 ICE and our 3rd car for my daughter will be a TSLA.

Now I realize if we have 50% EV tomorrow, we would have utilities crashing, economies crashing from less gas tax, oil industry collapsing, etc causing lots of economic pain. But it will not happen tomorrow so really, I doesn't affect me enjoying the benefits of my EV.

---

Again...I'm glad you have YOUR EV. I'm not anti-EV.

And I'm glad you're acknowledging at least some of the roadblocks. And you're right, those won't affect anything in the very near term.

I'm just stating that pointing out the roadblocks shouldn't be handwaved away. They exist and they're more than just what you pointed out. They also deal with behavior issues, housing issues, location issues, cost issues, etc.

Change always comes with risk vs benefits. I am not head in the sand when it comes with all the roadblocks pointed out and I completely agree that they exist. Will these issues be fixed, beats me. I can only make decision on what I know right now and the benefits outweighs the negatives in my household. If ICE risk/benefit profile is better, I would be in an ICE tomrrow.

I haven't checked this thread in a few hours.

Is Tesla still finished??