I own a tesla and not a fanboy. I like their look and much quicker than an ICE.

But if someone can create an ICE car with similar tech/quickness, less maintenance, allows me to refuel at home at 1/3 the gas station costs, then I will drop my Tesla in a heartbeat as it allows me to fill every mile.

I am happy to trade in the inconvenience of charging on the road for the convenience fo charging at home.

My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

aggievaulter07 said:

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Every time someone says "batteries do not…" and they don't follow that with "…yet" they are selling everything and everyone short. Just because a technology isn't instantly "there" for all things and all people isn't an excuse to just throw our hands up and stick with the "old" thing and write the new thing off. These things take time. And the reason governments are subsidizing and incentivizing is because we need these technologies to be "there" sooner than later.

Whether any of us believes in climate change or not is irrelevant. The knowledgable scientists do.

---

Governments aren't blowing our money because we NEED anything, its just another gift. We don't need EVs, they are being shoved down our throats.

The EV movement continues to ignore even the most basic questions that are asked over and over.

After all things considered, are EVs really better for the environment?

How are you going to charge them?

We don't currently have the battery tech that would allow EVs to replace ICE, yet many are clamoring for ICE to be gone in 10-15 years, please explain how that's even possible.

I'll hang up and listen.

ntxVol said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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Every time someone says "batteries do not…" and they don't follow that with "…yet" they are selling everything and everyone short. Just because a technology isn't instantly "there" for all things and all people isn't an excuse to just throw our hands up and stick with the "old" thing and write the new thing off. These things take time. And the reason governments are subsidizing and incentivizing is because we need these technologies to be "there" sooner than later.

Whether any of us believes in climate change or not is irrelevant. The knowledgable scientists do.

---

Governments aren't blowing our money because we NEED anything, its just another gift. We don't need EVs, they are being shoved down our throats.

The EV movement continues to ignore even the most basic questions that are asked over and over.

After all things considered, are EVs really better for the environment?

How are you going to charge them?

We don't currently have the battery tech that would allow EVs to replace ICE, yet many are clamoring for ICE to be gone in 10-15 years, please explain how that's even possible.

I'll hang up and listen.

---

You're not going to listen this time. Those questions have been answered, and you already haven't listened. You're not going to accept my answers either.

While we're talking about Capitalism...

Here's one of the imperfect times, just in case anyone thinks it's perfect...

A new Iowa bill would roll back child labor laws, allowing 14 to 17-year-olds to work in mining, meatpacking, demolition, operating guillotine shears, and other dangerous jobs. Under the business-backed bill, employers wouldn't be civilly liable if kids are injured or killed.

— More Perfect Union (@MorePerfectUS) February 7, 2023

Here's the article from the local paper...

Des Moines Register: The good and the bad of Iowa's bill that would bring big changes to child labor laws

Also, for the Capitalism folks...

Did Hertz buy 100,000 Teslas because they got government funding, or because they got special pricing from Tesla? Nope. They paid full retail price, and they did it because it's saving them massive dollars in ongoing maintenance costs.

Hertz says Tesla fleet of rental EVs are 50 pct cheaper to maintain than fossil fuel cars

Capitalism at work!

Medaggie said:

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My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

---

This is me 100%.

I pick up mine on Saturday.

The 4680s have a different composition that last twice as long and have a wider temperature range. They are also tabless so it is quicker to manufacture the battery packs.

Maintenance is a huge benefit of EVs, my company does both diesel/hydraulic systems and also battery powered stuff for things like oilfield and construction equipment. Shell said a piece of battery powered equipment that we did was 97% more fuel efficient than diesel/hydraulic and had 80% lower maintenance cost. But an EV is not the same as this application but maintenance is a perk

Medaggie said:

---

I own a tesla and not a fanboy. I like their look and much quicker than an ICE.

But if someone can create an ICE car with similar tech/quickness, less maintenance, allows me to refuel at home at 1/3 the gas station costs, then I will drop my Tesla in a heartbeat as it allows me to fill every mile.

I am happy to trade in the inconvenience of charging on the road for the convenience fo charging at home.

My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

---

Not a fan boy, but written like a fan boy. What ICE cars have you owned?

I believe he's said BMW's. Which is similar to myself. The Tesla I have outperforms and is cheaper to own and operate than any BMW I've had.

I know you didn't ask me directly, but I currently own two Model 3s. So, currently exclusively EV and exclusively Tesla. Also have a Cybertruck pre-ordered.

ICE Vehicles I have Previously owned:

'92 Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo
'01 Jeep Cherokee
'02 Ford F-150 V-6
'04 Ford Explorer V-8
'04 Ford F-150 5.4L V-8
'13 Ford F-150 5.0L V-8
'12 GMC Terrain (wife's)

Not sure what the point in asking was. Maybe you're just trying to figure out if we're super young and don't know any different. I have plenty of experience with ICE vehicles, and liked them all at the time that I owned them.

I'm in sales and typically do 30k-ish miles per year, and typically stay within 200 miles from home on the vast majority of days.

My current EVs kick absolute ass for my particular use-case.

There are no use cases for going 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

The added power allows for better maneuverability and traction control. The 0-60 time is not the important piece, it's the power and instantaneous reaction to acceleration that does.

Tesla makes the safest vehicles on the road in part due to that.

hph6203 said:

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The added power allows for better maneuverability and traction control. The 0-60 time is not the important piece, it's the power and instantaneous reaction to acceleration that does.

Tesla makes the safest vehicles on the road in part due to that.

---

I didn't know that race care acceleration is a safety feature. Normally excessively fast cars require higher car insurance premiums (due to the speed and the types of drivers that look for that speed).

Not necessarily a bad bill other than the negligence.

Don't post something from a union btw - they are more worried about their jobs being lost to those young people than actual safety.

WestAustinAg said:

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There are no use cases for going 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

---

It's fun as hell. My M series BMW's didn't have a use case either but were just fun to drive.

The speed with which a person can translate input to power is the safety feature. A combustion vehicle still has lag between gas input to power to the wheels, a Tesla's is near instantaneous. It allows the vehicle to adapt to slippage faster and for a person to maneuver better on the road.

You should test drive one. It would help you understand.

This is NOT knock but a legitimate question.

How well do EVs do with 4WD?

Ag with kids said:

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This is NOT knock but a legitimate question.

How well do EVs do with 4WD?

---

they are almost all 4wd / awd, many with 4 motors.

When it comes to offroad capabilities. There is a reason gas powered golf carts, mules and side by sides not only exist, but are prevalent in many offroad type locales.

Batteries become very inefficient at pulling a truck through mud.

WestAustinAg said:

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There are no use cases for going 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

---

There's no use case for dirt bikes, or video games, or water parks…

The vast majority of pickup truck owners have no real need for a pickup truck, either.

So what's your actual point?

Ag with kids said:

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This is NOT knock but a legitimate question.

How well do EVs do with 4WD?

---

The answer could go several different directions. Do you mean true off-roading? If that's the question, I would assume that we'd need to hear from Lightning, Rivian or Hummer EV owners at this point.

If you're just asking about all-wheel drive on EV cars, there's a Joe Rogan / Elon Musk interview where they talk about the insanity of Tesla's traction control system. A couple years ago during that crazy freeze in Texas, I was about to get around the metroplex in my Model 3 where other cars and trucks struggled. That's my only direct experience in an abnormal situation with mine other than just driving in normal rain.

aggievaulter07 said:

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Ag with kids said:

---

This is NOT knock but a legitimate question.

How well do EVs do with 4WD?

---

The answer could go several different directions. Do you mean true off-roading? If that's the question, I would assume that we'd need to hear from Lightning, Rivian or Hummer EV owners at this point.

If you're just asking about all-wheel drive on EV cars, there's a Joe Rogan / Elon Musk interview where they talk about the insanity of Tesla's traction control system. A couple years ago during that crazy freeze in Texas, I was about to get around the metroplex in my Model 3 where other cars and trucks struggled. That's my only direct experience in an abnormal situation with mine other than just driving in normal rain.

---

I'm specifically asking about offroad. I live on N Padre Island and drive on the beach all the time. Because of this, all of my vehicles (2 Jeep Wranglers and a 2010 F150) are 4WD.

I am NOT going to be that ****ing idiot that gets stuck in the soft sand.

I'm going to be that guy that pulls the ****ing idiot out of the soft sand.

EVs seem interesting...but the price point is WAY too high for me. And I will say that the Cybertruck looks like a truck had sex with the Battlestar Galactica Cylons...so....yeah...

The Rivian and Lightning look like real trucks but again...price is really high.

IslanderAg04 said:

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Medaggie said:

---

I own a tesla and not a fanboy. I like their look and much quicker than an ICE.

But if someone can create an ICE car with similar tech/quickness, less maintenance, allows me to refuel at home at 1/3 the gas station costs, then I will drop my Tesla in a heartbeat as it allows me to fill every mile.

I am happy to trade in the inconvenience of charging on the road for the convenience fo charging at home.

My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

---

Not a fan boy, but written like a fan boy. What ICE cars have you owned?

---

I have owned an BMW X5, 3 series, Odessey, Buick enclave the past 10 yrs. Each had its purpose until I found something better to fit my family. Again, if any of these 4 cars gave me the convenience/personal practicality of my Tesla Y, I would still be in ICE. I can care less about the green/politics angle so don't care to debate it. I can care less if ICE goes out of business and jobs lost b/c jobs will be gained in the EV side.

Here is my last 24 hrs with the car and why it works for me.

Drove from Austin with 175miles range to BCS with 40mile range left. We put a Tsla charger at my work. in 5 hrs, ended charging at 260miles. Drove back to Austin, with 120 miles range left. Picked up kids for basketball game, went home, drove daughter to VB practice, drove home. Came home with 40 miles left.

Total driving in 24 about 300 miles and cost me about $6 as I charged it fully at work. If I did this with an ICE, I likely would have had to pour gas and spent $30 in my BMW.

I never have range anxiety doing 99.9% of my drives b/c there are chargers everywhere on my routes.

I have no idea about sand but I have pulled my 25' boat from my home to dock all the time without any issues but its only a few block drive. I have never noticed any lack of pull issues and I doubt it would be stuck in the sand.

But again, if I needed a car to do off road, pulling heavy loads, or taking long regular commutes over 200 miles, an EV likely is not for you.

aggievaulter07 said:

---

While we're talking about Capitalism...

Here's one of the imperfect times, just in case anyone thinks it's perfect...

A new Iowa bill would roll back child labor laws, allowing 14 to 17-year-olds to work in mining, meatpacking, demolition, operating guillotine shears, and other dangerous jobs. Under the business-backed bill, employers wouldn't be civilly liable if kids are injured or killed.

— More Perfect Union (@MorePerfectUS) February 7, 2023

Here's the article from the local paper...

Des Moines Register: The good and the bad of Iowa's bill that would bring big changes to child labor laws

---

Excellent news and a long time coming. Hopefully this passes and serves as precedent for other states to follow suit. Would be of tremendous benefit to businesses and to the poor/working classes. If we can get a principled conservative into the Whitehouse who'll support states in this effort, along with reducing/eliminating the minimum wage then maybe there will be hope for a rebirth of the US economy.

Medaggie said:

---

IslanderAg04 said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

I own a tesla and not a fanboy. I like their look and much quicker than an ICE.

But if someone can create an ICE car with similar tech/quickness, less maintenance, allows me to refuel at home at 1/3 the gas station costs, then I will drop my Tesla in a heartbeat as it allows me to fill every mile.

I am happy to trade in the inconvenience of charging on the road for the convenience fo charging at home.

My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

---

Not a fan boy, but written like a fan boy. What ICE cars have you owned?

---

I have owned an BMW X5, 3 series, Odessey, Buick enclave the past 10 yrs. Each had its purpose until I found something better to fit my family. Again, if any of these 4 cars gave me the convenience/personal practicality of my Tesla Y, I would still be in ICE. I can care less about the green/politics angle so don't care to debate it. I can care less if ICE goes out of business and jobs lost b/c jobs will be gained in the EV side.

Here is my last 24 hrs with the car and why it works for me.

Drove from Austin with 175miles range to BCS with 40mile range left. We put a Tsla charger at my work. in 5 hrs, ended charging at 260miles. Drove back to Austin, with 120 miles range left. Picked up kids for basketball game, went home, drove daughter to VB practice, drove home. Came home with 40 miles left.

Total driving in 24 about 300 miles and cost me about $6 as I charged it fully at work. If I did this with an ICE, I likely would have had to pour gas and spent $30 in my BMW.

I never have range anxiety doing 99.9% of my drives b/c there are chargers everywhere on my routes.

---

Out the door, what did you pay for your Y, and what model?

Also I work at the summit on SW parkway, and have yet to see a day where a supercharger is available. Plus you have to pay an hourly rate just to use the spaces on top of the charging fee's.

So when is the Tesla bankruptcy filing to happen, and will it be a reorganization or a liquidation sale?

I guess not today?

Quote:

---

The Tesla Model Y was the best-selling vehicle in California in 2022, while the Tesla Model 3 took second place in the state beating out all legacy automakers.

It's no secret that California is a Tesla stronghold. Anyone who has so much as had a layover at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) has noticed the crazy number of Teslas and electric vehicles generally. But Tesla's popularity in the state seems to have come to a head as its Model Y and Model 3 were the top two best-selling vehicles in California in 2022.

Toyota is typically the top dog in California and numerous other states, but according to Reuters, following a significant sales slump last year, the Japanese brand's most popular models fell to third and fourth place behind the Tesla offerings. Tesla sold 87,257 Model Ys in California during 2022, making it the most popular vehicle in the state. Following close behind, the Tesla Model 3 sold 78,934 units. Both Tesla models leaped far ahead of the Toyota RAV4 with 59,794 sales in third place and the Toyota Camry with 55,967 in fourth place.

Despite Tesla's surge in popularity in 2021, the American automaker barely missed the top spot in the state during the year, making 2022 the first year Tesla has held the top sales title.

---

nortex97 said:

---

So when is the Tesla bankruptcy filing to happen, and will it be a reorganization or a liquidation sale?

I guess not today?

Quote:

---

The Tesla Model Y was the best-selling vehicle in California in 2022, while the Tesla Model 3 took second place in the state beating out all legacy automakers.

It's no secret that California is a Tesla stronghold. Anyone who has so much as had a layover at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) has noticed the crazy number of Teslas and electric vehicles generally. But Tesla's popularity in the state seems to have come to a head as its Model Y and Model 3 were the top two best-selling vehicles in California in 2022.

Toyota is typically the top dog in California and numerous other states, but according to Reuters, following a significant sales slump last year, the Japanese brand's most popular models fell to third and fourth place behind the Tesla offerings. Tesla sold 87,257 Model Ys in California during 2022, making it the most popular vehicle in the state. Following close behind, the Tesla Model 3 sold 78,934 units. Both Tesla models leaped far ahead of the Toyota RAV4 with 59,794 sales in third place and the Toyota Camry with 55,967 in fourth place.

Despite Tesla's surge in popularity in 2021, the American automaker barely missed the top spot in the state during the year, making 2022 the first year Tesla has held the top sales title.

---

---

I don't know if CA is the best example. They've banned freaking gas lawn equipment, and have scheduling banning the sale of gas cars in the near future. Find me a state without heavy political market manipulation and we can have a talk.

It's probably, alternatively the best case study. OP's theory was driven by a political rejection by 'the people' of the company due to the CEO's politics. California is a uniparty communist state, where Tesla since this 'incident' has continued to do better than ever, as a company.

I don't like the idea of EV's, from a market/personal/environmental/political perspective at all, but I think it is laughable that OP surmised Tesla was doomed because leftists would now reject the company's products. Neither politically nor in the marketplace has that happened.

Love this post.

IslanderAg04 said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

IslanderAg04 said:

---

Medaggie said:

---

I own a tesla and not a fanboy. I like their look and much quicker than an ICE.

But if someone can create an ICE car with similar tech/quickness, less maintenance, allows me to refuel at home at 1/3 the gas station costs, then I will drop my Tesla in a heartbeat as it allows me to fill every mile.

I am happy to trade in the inconvenience of charging on the road for the convenience fo charging at home.

My purchase has nothing to do with the environment, climate change. It has only to do with what works for my driving needs which I believe it true for 80% of drivers.

---

Not a fan boy, but written like a fan boy. What ICE cars have you owned?

---

I have owned an BMW X5, 3 series, Odessey, Buick enclave the past 10 yrs. Each had its purpose until I found something better to fit my family. Again, if any of these 4 cars gave me the convenience/personal practicality of my Tesla Y, I would still be in ICE. I can care less about the green/politics angle so don't care to debate it. I can care less if ICE goes out of business and jobs lost b/c jobs will be gained in the EV side.

Here is my last 24 hrs with the car and why it works for me.

Drove from Austin with 175miles range to BCS with 40mile range left. We put a Tsla charger at my work. in 5 hrs, ended charging at 260miles. Drove back to Austin, with 120 miles range left. Picked up kids for basketball game, went home, drove daughter to VB practice, drove home. Came home with 40 miles left.

Total driving in 24 about 300 miles and cost me about $6 as I charged it fully at work. If I did this with an ICE, I likely would have had to pour gas and spent $30 in my BMW.

I never have range anxiety doing 99.9% of my drives b/c there are chargers everywhere on my routes.

---

Out the door, what did you pay for your Y, and what model?

Also I work at the summit on SW parkway, and have yet to see a day where a supercharger is available. Plus you have to pay an hourly rate just to use the spaces on top of the charging fee's.

---

I bought it almost 3 yrs ago and chose the long range with the FSD package for I believe 8K back then. I think Out the door with subsequent TTL was right at 65K. This is right in line with an X5.

A current Long range without FSD is 55K and with the tax rebate of 7500, puts ir right at 50K with TTL so 15-20K cheaper than a similar X5.

For the "Tesla is Finished" and the "Competition is Coming" crowds...

Sales, 10 Yrs Ago...
GM: $152 billion
Ford: $134 bil.
Tesla: $0.4 bil.

Sales Today...
GM: $157 billion
Ford: $158 bil.
Tesla: $81 bil.

Net Income, 10 Yrs Ago...$GM: $6.2 billion$F: $5.6 bil.$TSLA: -$0.4 bil.

Net Income Today...$GM: $10 billion$F: -$2 bil.$TSLA: $13 bil. pic.twitter.com/7ze0bmMPKl

— Charlie Bilello (@charliebilello) February 7, 2023

That Net Income, tho…
(SPOILER: It's more than GM and Ford combined)

Does Tesla deal with UAW complications?

I'm curious how much UAW kills the "old school" manufacturers.

evan_aggie said:

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Does Tesla deal with UAW complications?

I'm curious how much UAW kills the "old school" manufacturers.

---

Tesla is notoriously anti-union. I definitely think the unions are an anchor around the neck of legacy auto.

It's actually incredibly weird that the Unions and GM, Ford, etc. seem to be very buddy/buddy, in public at least. That, by nature, should be an adversarial relationship.

Also, being buddy/buddy with the unions, to me, is almost an admission by these guys that they're just completely incapable of being a good employer, absent the unions forcing them to be. If you HAVE to have a 3rd Party watchdog just to keep you from being a crappy employer, then...

...well, you ARE a crappy employer.

AggieCo2023 said:

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Tesla stock is now down 52% since Elon Musk offered to buy Twitter in April, losing over half a trillion dollars in market valuation.

In just the six and a half weeks since Musk took over Twitter on October 28, Tesla stock is down 31%, losing $225 billion in value. pic.twitter.com/W1ukdbpkte

— 🦀 Jon Schwarz 🦀 (@schwarz) December 14, 2022

Whatever one may think of Elon and his new conservative politics, it is an extremely questionable move to become a public spokesperson for right wing ideology while running an electric car and solar panel company. Liberals were probably 75% of his customers (at least) and he has completed lost them. I predict Tesla stock price will continue to plummet as Elon is clearly distracted and prioritizing Twitter.

---

AggieCo2023 said:

---

Tesla stock is now down 52% since Elon Musk offered to buy Twitter in April, losing over half a trillion dollars in market valuation.

In just the six and a half weeks since Musk took over Twitter on October 28, Tesla stock is down 31%, losing $225 billion in value. pic.twitter.com/W1ukdbpkte

— 🦀 Jon Schwarz 🦀 (@schwarz) December 14, 2022

Whatever one may think of Elon and his new conservative politics, it is an extremely questionable move to become a public spokesperson for right wing ideology while running an electric car and solar panel company. Liberals were probably 75% of his customers (at least) and he has completed lost them. I predict Tesla stock price will continue to plummet as Elon is clearly distracted and prioritizing Twitter.

---

This made me laugh today