smitshot said:

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fka ftc said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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Let's check your pulse on the auto industry as a whole. Assuming you have the funds to do so, would you buy or open an auto dealership today?

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No. Car dealerships have always been worthless and I despise every single part of the car buying process.

If I walk into a dealership I usually know way more about the car, the market and the price of the car than the poor fella who drew the short straw having me as a customer.

Now, I just order what I want. Not sure what the point of your question was though.

ICE is here to stay, at least for the next 25-50 years. As smarter Ags than I have pointed out, petro has a unique advantage of store energy potential. EVs do not replicate that at all. They are actually a regression from the diesel locomotive. Chew on that a bit.

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All I know is that when I jump in my Tesla every morning I've got 300 miles of stored energy. When I'm out of town and rent an ICE vehicle, it feels clunky, unsafe, ancient and inefficient. The Tesla has instant power with just a small depression of the accelerator, automatically comes to a stop at lights with regenerative braking so you rarely have to use the "real" brakes, the steering is extremely responsive and agile but yet built solid as a rock. My wife has a knack for running into curbs and what used to knock our ICE cars completely out of alignment doesn't budge the Tesla. It seems almost impossible to knock them out of alignment.

So what you claim as a regression is actually the safest, fastest, cleanest, most advanced software managed vehicle on the planet. With near zero maintenance (changing that windshield wiper fluid is a pain). No transmission fluid, no power steering fluid, no oil, no spark plugs, no starter. I'm an FSD beta tester and with autopilot mode selected the car drove 50 miles from North Dallas to Fort Worth with no interventions. Stopping at red lights, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass before turning on an unprotected left turn. Auto pilot is coming folks. It might not be this year, it might not be next year but within 3-5 years I fully expect to be able to tell my Tesla to "Navigate to Phoenix Arizona" and 15 hours later driving all night while I'm asleep hearing "You've arrived at your destination" in a sexy British voice with a hot cup of morning coffee being delivered out of the front console.

Drive one, own one. Your perspective will change drastically.

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Can you sort out for me the legal liability if your auto driving Tesla runs over and kills a family of 5 who were walking down the side of the road in the middle of the night? You think Elon is going be left holding the tab? Nope. It's going to be you as the car will always require your active participation so they can skirt direct liability.

Sorry bruh, your sleep all night while the car drives is not going to fly.

You realize the Tesla has 8 camera's observing its 360 degree surroundings sitting on millions of computations per second and never gets tired or distracted. When Fully Automated driving is approved by the government it won't just be better and safer than humans it will be more like a magnitude of ten times more safe. Level 4 autopilot allows the car to drive itself with a human monitoring it but you would not be required to have your hands on the wheel. Level 5 autopilot allows you to not just sleep in the car but also allows the car to drive itself without a human actually in the car. So yes IF the car plows over a family of 5 tragically I the owner am fully responsible. But that incident will happen 10 times less than it happens today. Tesla's don't text and drive. Humans do … and they kill thousands of people every year because of their negligence. Tesla is already reviewing and proving with statistics that the percentage of accidents occurring to miles driven on autopilot it's much less than the percentage of accidents occurring while autopilot is not engaged.

If folks are going to base their opinions of EV's to their experience on a golf course with electric verses ICE golf carts then I'm probably wasting my time on here. Just trying to give everyone a glimpse of the future and you may not like it, but there is absolutely no doubt the electric AI revolution is coming.

I'll stick to Don Cheadle if I want a glimpse.

And yes, someone thinking we are going to have autonomous cars driving around whilst people sleep in the back is likely wasting their time on politics board.

smitshot said:

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Just trying to give everyone a glimpse of the future and you may not like it, but there is absolutely no doubt the electric AI revolution is coming.

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Just not from Tesla. The teacher that is always wrong said so.

RIP Tesla.

smitshot said:

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Just trying to give everyone a glimpse of the future and you may not like it, but there is absolutely no doubt the electric AI revolution is coming.

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Loss of freedom.

fka ftc said:

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likely wasting their time on politics board.

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Just this week two coworkers were actually complaining about their teslas, but I think overall they really like the cars. Also, at least one of them hates Musk and his next car won't be Tesla.

smitshot said:

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All I know is that when I jump in my Tesla every morning I've got 300 miles of stored energy. When I'm out of town and rent an ICE vehicle, it feels clunky, unsafe, ancient and inefficient. The Tesla has instant power with just a small depression of the accelerator, automatically comes to a stop at lights with regenerative braking so you rarely have to use the "real" brakes, the steering is extremely responsive and agile but yet built solid as a rock. My wife has a knack for running into curbs and what used to knock our ICE cars completely out of alignment doesn't budge the Tesla. It seems almost impossible to knock them out of alignment.

So what you claim as a regression is actually the safest, fastest, cleanest, most advanced software managed vehicle on the planet. With near zero maintenance (changing that windshield wiper fluid is a pain). No transmission fluid, no power steering fluid, no oil, no spark plugs, no starter. I'm an FSD beta tester and with autopilot mode selected the car drove 50 miles from North Dallas to Fort Worth with no interventions. Stopping at red lights, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass before turning on an unprotected left turn. Auto pilot is coming folks. It might not be this year, it might not be next year but within 3-5 years I fully expect to be able to tell my Tesla to "Navigate to Phoenix Arizona" and 15 hours later driving all night while I'm asleep hearing "You've arrived at your destination" in a sexy British voice with a hot cup of morning coffee being delivered out of the front console.

Drive one, own one. Your perspective will change drastically.

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I like Tesla and Teslas, These statements are beyond ignorant

Tesla does use oil and lubricants

You don't understand how the regenerative braking works in conjunction with "real " brakes

The electronic power steering is still using power steering fluid and is still a fluid based hydraulic system

Suspension components still use lubricants and require replacement(some at a higher rate than their ICE counterpart due to the weight of the car). Multi Link suspension still needs grease in the joints.

while not actively serviced, the gear boxes use and are filled with gear oil

the rest of the ethereal claims of safety and ease of driving.....maybe you should just take public transport or higher a driver if you and your wife cant adequately drive a vehicle without hitting curbs

Teslas electronic steering uses no fluids.

Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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what is the comparison on ICE based on Hydrogen? I realize Hydrogen acquisition and storage is impractical today, but how does it compare to gasoline in terms of energy density?

fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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The majority will be whatever the consumers demand

The way smarter guys than me around here broke it down that Hydrogen is poor for stored energy.

Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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The majority will be whatever the consumers demand

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Then explain EV mandates to me. If its consumer driven, then I think you see market shrinking, not growing.

I know of know ICE drivers clamoring to get their hands on an EV.

yup. noted

Politics. See something happening and pretend like it was your idea all along.

EV credits are paybacks to UAW.

The only major auto brand that is growing volume right now is Tesla. They sold half as many cars as Ford last year. They'll sell more vehicles than Ford by 2025. Maybe 2024 dependent upon how much Ford's sales decline between now and the end of 2024.

fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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The majority will be whatever the consumers demand

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Then explain EV mandates to me. If its consumer driven, then I think you see market shrinking, not growing.

I know of know ICE drivers clamoring to get their hands on an EV.

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Now this comment makes so much more sense. You and Pacecar are living on the same remote planet where there is no being that you know of that is interested in buying an EV. The market for EV's is shrinking? Where in the hell are you getting your information? It can't be planet Earth. Do you guys have access to statistics and news around the world, not just the US?

my tesla only rolls coal when the battery catches on fire

smitshot said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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The majority will be whatever the consumers demand

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Then explain EV mandates to me. If its consumer driven, then I think you see market shrinking, not growing.

I know of know ICE drivers clamoring to get their hands on an EV.

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Now this comment makes so much more sense. You and Pacecar are living on the same remote planet where there is no being that you know of that is interested in buying an EV. The market for EV's is shrinking? Where in the hell are you getting your information? It can't be planet Earth. Do you guys have access to statistics and news around the world, not just the US?

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My comments are sourced by intelligence, experience, and critical reasoning. Have no idea where your fairy tales come from.

Nothing is stopping you from buying all the overpriced suped up electric golf carts you want. I have no use for one and think the overall market will be 25%. Though I would like to think I can predict the future (and thus could let folks know decisively what a waste of time climate change nonsense is), I cannot provide a "source" other than me for what I think will happen.

But keep it up with your nonsensical dribbling pro ev drivel. You are coming across like a resident bitcoin salesperson.

fka ftc said:

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smitshot said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Which can be, if not already, done on an ICE vehicle.

Same for many of the other items noted as an advantage of an EV over ICE.

Which is why EV only will cap out, hybrids will feel a big gap, but the majority will be ultra efficient ICE.

At the end of the day it gets down to what can the vehicle carry in stored energy to get from A to B, and ICE will continue to have the advantage. Period, end of story.

EVs have a place, but they are not the ultimate solution to transportation needs or "climate" problems.

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The majority will be whatever the consumers demand

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Then explain EV mandates to me. If its consumer driven, then I think you see market shrinking, not growing.

I know of know ICE drivers clamoring to get their hands on an EV.

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Now this comment makes so much more sense. You and Pacecar are living on the same remote planet where there is no being that you know of that is interested in buying an EV. The market for EV's is shrinking? Where in the hell are you getting your information? It can't be planet Earth. Do you guys have access to statistics and news around the world, not just the US?

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My comments are sourced by intelligence, experience, and critical reasoning. Have no idea where your fairy tales come from.

Nothing is stopping you from buying all the overpriced suped up electric golf carts you want. I have no use for one and think the overall market will be 25%. Though I would like to think I can predict the future (and thus could let folks know decisively what a waste of time climate change nonsense is), I cannot provide a "source" other than me for what I think will happen.

But keep it up with your nonsensical dribbling pro ev drivel. You are coming across like a resident bitcoin salesperson.

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I'm a person who has not only owned Tesla's going on four years now but also someone who monitors worldwide demand and sales of EV's. I'm heavily invested in Tesla because I've not only experienced their products but also researched the fundamentals of all aspects of their business to the extent that I monitor drone reconnaissance of every Tesla factory from China, Berlin, Austin, Fremont to the Semi-Truck factory being constructed in Nevada. You come across as someone who either lives under a bridge down by the river or someone who just shoots from hip with ideas formed off the top of your head. So what criteria would a person of your self proclaimed intellect and critical thinking need to consider Tesla a successful company? What percentage of total auto sales worldwide would you consider EV's a serious competitor to ICE vehicle sales?

Those are some good questions

For me personally, I don't care about the environmental aspect as I believe it is a wash at the very best... however:

I agree that Tesla is a very successful company, at least for now and into as far as I can see of the future. I recently bought a modest amount of shares, and only wish I had bought a boatload many years ago.

What I am mainly interested to know is whether there is a better opportunity to invest my hard earned capital and what the payoff is. Where is the right point to exit, as in where does the story/message top out or does the competition from the established automakers somehow overtake Tesla. I don't really see that for a very long time.

AggieVictor10 said:

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my tesla only rolls coal when the battery catches on fire

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So your Tesla is actually a Ram truck?

Teslag said:

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AggieVictor10 said:

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my tesla only rolls coal when the battery catches on fire

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So your Tesla is actually a Ram truck?

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Wrong

I've ordered a cybertruck

I was only pointing out wrong/dumb points a previous poster was making

I even said in the beginning "I like Tesla and I like Teslas"

Toyota R&D guy gave a nice example of why EV only doesn't work on a larger scale: lack of lithium supplies. I don't know if that is changing or just a matter of unearthing the known spots.

But basically explaining one Tesla competitor can be built or 10 hybrids. The 10 hybrids does more to reduce emissions than one EV. Not sure how true that is...but that was the stance.

IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

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Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

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Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

evan_aggie said:

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Toyota R&D guy gave a nice example of why EV only doesn't work on a larger scale: lack of lithium supplies. I don't know if that is changing or just a matter of unearthing the known spots.

But basically explaining one Tesla competitor can be built or 10 hybrids. The 10 hybrids does more to reduce emissions than one EV. Not sure how true that is...but that was the stance.

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My understanding regarding lithium supply is that it's not that lithium is rare, even in the slightest. It's just that there aren't currently enough companies mining/extracting it to keep up with expected future demand. Tesla has made it very clear that they'll buy all the lithium anyone can mine, sort of as a nudge to the mining industry that there is a huge opportunity here.

Tesla has also made it clear that if nobody else steps up, they'll simply mine it themselves, if that's what it takes.

evan_aggie said:

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Toyota R&D guy gave a nice example of why EV only doesn't work on a larger scale: lack of lithium supplies. I don't know if that is changing or just a matter of unearthing the known spots.

But basically explaining one Tesla competitor can be built or 10 hybrids. The 10 hybrids does more to reduce emissions than one EV. Not sure how true that is...but that was the stance.

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It's true.

You can build 5-8 plug in hybrids or you can build 1 fully electric.

You get 90% of the emissions reduction with 20% of the battery.

And they're more affordable, making adoption and proliferation easier.
Productions won't be as constrained by battery raw materials.

aggievaulter07 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

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Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

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Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

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So why is every vehicle commercial for an EV? Because the car companies what to lose money to benefit the planet?

evan_aggie said:

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Toyota R&D guy gave a nice example of why EV only doesn't work on a larger scale: lack of lithium supplies. I don't know if that is changing or just a matter of unearthing the known spots.

But basically explaining one Tesla competitor can be built or 10 hybrids. The 10 hybrids does more to reduce emissions than one EV. Not sure how true that is...but that was the stance.

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That's because the fossil fuels it takes to mine, refine, and ship the lithium coupled with fossil fuels it takes to generate and transmit the electricity to power the EV takes something like 6-7 years before the EV becomes a net winner regarding fossil fuel usage.

cevans_40 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

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Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

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Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

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So why is every vehicle commercial for an EV? Because the car companies what to lose money to benefit the planet?

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When was the last time you saw a Tesla commercial?

Teslag said:

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cevans_40 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

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Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

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Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

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So why is every vehicle commercial for an EV? Because the car companies what to lose money to benefit the planet?

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When was the last time you saw a Tesla commercial?

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What does that have anything to do with what I said?

Why are all the big companies only advertising a product that they supposedly lose money on? Sounds like a losing proposition.

cevans_40 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

---

Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

---

Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

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So why is every vehicle commercial for an EV? Because the car companies what to lose money to benefit the planet?

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So... is your logic based on marketing, or actual numbers presented in each of these car companies' quarterly financial reports?

cevans_40 said:

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Teslag said:

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cevans_40 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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You do you, too. At the time, lots of people didn't think ICE was going to replace the horse, either. Did you also invest in Sears during Amazon's rise?

At this point, how does one "Invest in ICE"?

Serious question, since basically every ICE manufacturer is already, or has announced heavy investments in EVs.

Or, did you not mean "invest" literally? And just mean you're only buying ICE vehicles for the foreseeable future?

---

Did you really just compare ICE vehicles to the technological equivalent of a horse? Rofl.

Manufacturers are pushing ev's bc of their crazy amount of profit margins and massive govt subsidies.

---

Crazy margins? Everybody is currently losing money, or barely breaking even on their EVs except Tesla. It's literally JUST Tesla making "crazy margins" on any vehicle sales, especially EVs.

---

So why is every vehicle commercial for an EV? Because the car companies what to lose money to benefit the planet?

---

When was the last time you saw a Tesla commercial?

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What does that have anything to do with what I said?

Why are all the big companies only advertising a product that they supposedly lose money on? Sounds like a losing proposition.

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Because they are chasing market share, not profitability. Tesla, the most profitable EV company in the world, doesn't advertise.