Murder or no?

20,860 Views | 302 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Stasco
fixer
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Private PoopyPants said:

fixer said:

2 vs 1 is disparity of force and a huge element in green lighting lethal force in defense of self or property.




Completely false. The first person stole the tip jar. The other guy jumped the counter to take things off the shelf. Stabbing the second guy had nothing to do with a threat from the first guy.


Your take is offensively moronic.

2 actors were in store robbing place at the same time and were conspiring as such as a team.

That is 2 vs 1 all day.
Tom Doniphon
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VegasAg86 said:

One complaint on the video. It's Nev-ad-a, not Nev-ah-da!!!!!

You're thinking about the town up close to lake lavon - Nuh-VAY-duh... the state is Nuh-vah-duh.
Not a Bot
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fixer said:

Private PoopyPants said:

fixer said:

2 vs 1 is disparity of force and a huge element in green lighting lethal force in defense of self or property.




Completely false. The first person stole the tip jar. The other guy jumped the counter to take things off the shelf. Stabbing the second guy had nothing to do with a threat from the first guy.


Your take is offensively moronic.

2 actors were in store robbing place at the same time and were conspiring as such as a team.

That is 2 vs 1 all day.


They were conspiring to steal things. They did not threaten, beat up, or try to kill the clerk. The physical response must be proportional to the threat. Legal use of deadly force requires the threat to the person to be imminent and severe. One guy stealing a tip jar and another hopping a counter to take things off of a shelf (while paying no attention to the clerk) is not legal justification for stabbing the guy seven times.
Not a Bot
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ABATTBQ11 said:

Private PoopyPants said:

SociallyConditionedAg said:

It seems that the robber closed the distance. The store owner had the counter between him and the 2 robbers when one jumped it and put the owner in danger.


That's not what the video showed. The clerk was looking at the guy on the right as he was reaching over the counter. He sees the guy jump over the counter to the left, but the guy on the left isn't even looking at the clerk. He's grabbing stuff off the shelf. The clerk runs toward him and stabs him.

And if this guy really is blabbering to the media and to Reddit he's going to get himself in trouble. He will say something wrong (may already have) and it will be used against him.




Agree on second part, but first part I think you have to be able to put yourself in the clerk's shoes. If someone robbing you comes over the counter, you have a split second to assess their intentions. You can either wait and see if he tries to shoot or stab you, or you can attack and potentially disarm or bewilder him into retreating.

At this juncture, the clerk's in a corner. Even if he has a duty to retreat, he's got nowhere to go. I think a reasonable person would immediately Cobra Kai the guy coming over the counter in that situation.
From what I've read there's no duty to retreat in Nevada.

If the letter of the Nevada statute is followed then the clerk's mindset may not even matter. This is where all the talk about prosecutorial and grand jury discretion comes into play. The law does not appear to be on the clerk's side:

Quote:


If a person kills another in self-defense, it must appear that:
1. The danger was so urgent and pressing that, in order to save the person's own life, or to prevent the person from receiving great bodily harm, the killing of the other was absolutely necessary; and
2. The person killed was the assailant, or that the slayer had really, and in good faith, endeavored to decline any further struggle before the mortal blow was given.

hurricanejake02
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Without seeing the rest of the statute around the excerpt, I'm not sure if that applies at all if he lives.
VegasAg86
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hurricanejake02 said:

Without seeing the rest of the statute around the excerpt, I'm not sure if that applies at all if he lives.


Watch the Branca video at the bottom of page 7. He's an attorney and an expert on self-defense law. He went through the video and the Nevada statute very thoroughly. The law isn't on the owner's side. His best hope is for the DA to not pursue charges.
fixer
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Private PoopyPants said:

fixer said:

Private PoopyPants said:

fixer said:

2 vs 1 is disparity of force and a huge element in green lighting lethal force in defense of self or property.




Completely false. The first person stole the tip jar. The other guy jumped the counter to take things off the shelf. Stabbing the second guy had nothing to do with a threat from the first guy.


Your take is offensively moronic.

2 actors were in store robbing place at the same time and were conspiring as such as a team.

That is 2 vs 1 all day.


They were conspiring to steal things. They did not threaten, beat up, or try to kill the clerk. The physical response must be proportional to the threat. Legal use of deadly force requires the threat to the person to be imminent and severe. One guy stealing a tip jar and another hopping a counter to take things off of a shelf (while paying no attention to the clerk) is not legal justification for stabbing the guy seven times.
so we agree.

2 vs 1.

"taking things off a shelf" is a hilariously naive take.
BCG Disciple
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That Nevada law allowing deadly force only if it's required is absurd. There would probably be a lot more theft issues in that ****hole state had the mob not taken matters into their own hands for decades.
HoustonAg2106
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TXAggie2011 said:

I'm saying he wasn't cornered in response to a claim he was cornered. I'm not sure how imply all of that but if you want to argue against something you made up, go for it


Fine he wasn't "cornered", but the exit behind the counter was flanked by the robber once he jumped over the counter and he reacted immediately because he had no where else to go. This country is going to hell if we tell people in that situation the only thing you are allowed to do is curl up in the fetal position and let the robbers take anything they want...not exactly a deterrent to crime.
HoustonAg2106
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Private PoopyPants said:

fka ftc said:

It is reasonable to suspect that two people coming into your store wearing masks, who refuse to leave, who then begin stealing, who further advance toward you are indeed armed and will use whatever force to complete their criminal act.

To see this situation any other way is nave or simply sinister and disregards the purpose and intent of self-defense defenses. Their appearance, and in particular their wearing of masks, followed by their ongoing criminal act, creates a heightened danger and justifies the knife used in self-defense.


I would strongly suggest you watch the video I linked above. A lot of what you said is actually legal myth and can get people in trouble. Neither one of those individuals represented a threat under Nevada law which would allow someone to use deadly force against them. Had the guy behind the counter turned and come at the clerk it would be very different.

Look at the cases of Michael Drejka and Michael Dunn. Both used deadly force to "defend themselves" because they "were scared." Both are now serving significant prison sentences. They were convicted in Florida, a state notorious for upholding the right to self-defense. Both had the mindset that as long as they were acting in "fear" that a jury would not convict them. Both of them argued they were scared about what might happen, and it didn't work.


In no way are those similar instances, like at all.
Both of your examples the gunmen were the ones that were responsible for the confrontation even starting and the persons shot were not committing a crime
VegasAg86
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Fox 5 Las Vegas is reporting the 3rd suspect has been arrested. They also said the DA is investigating, seemed to mean the storekeepers actions. I don't see the report on their website yet.

Main page:
Fox 5 Las Vegas

chap
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Yeah, I read last night that they had arrested 3 "juveniles", including the one that was stabbed. I don't take that to mean that the third was the shop owner.

https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/las-vegas-police-arrest-3-juveniles-in-smoke-shop-robbery/

eric76
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chap said:

Yeah, I read last night that they had arrested 3 "juveniles", including the one that was stabbed. I don't take that to mean that the third was the shop owner.

https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/las-vegas-police-arrest-3-juveniles-in-smoke-shop-robbery/
Also, other stories indicated that there were three robbers.
DannyDuberstein
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Don't worry pal. You are being confronted by a 3 man crew wearing masks and jumping your counter, but you shouldn't have any fear for your life.

What a clown show take
OneProudAg
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Satellite of Love said:

Funky Winkerbean said:

The perp takes a swing at him

After the clerk stabbed him a few times.
OneProudAg
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Question had already been addressed
Not a Bot
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And both of them likely heard from a friend of a friend or read message boards such as this one that all it takes is to say you are fearful for your life. They believed many of the myths of self-defense laws and are now sitting in prison. There's been a lot of advocates on this thread for use of deadly force when it isn't warranted.

The entire reason for me continuing to post here is to help people understand that the law is much more complicated than what many think and people should be educated about what they are legally allowed to do in a given situation rather than rely on bad information.

The thief lived, he and his dickweed friends are going to spend some time in prison, and hopefully they all learned their lesson. Maybe the events of the past week, with a robber having his arm blown off in another one nearly stab to death will help people think twice about doing this. That's the ideal outcome here.

The non-ideal outcome is if store owners feel like they can start trying to kill people who are merely stealing from them and who are not posing an immediate physical threat.
oh no
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Let's keep protecting the addicts and bad actors. Let them know they can attack and steal other peoples' property without consequence.

Let's also hold all non-bad actors accountable for knowing the ins and outs of the applicable laws in their states while they are being attacked.

Great plan. You can tell from the daily viral videos in our big cities that it's working out well. Being a criminal is one of the best professions out there nowadays, especially with inflation and more tax hikes coming for the non-criminals. .
aTm2004
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Is there an update on this? I looked at can't find anything beyond the initial articles. Has he had charges brought up?
Hammerly High Dive Crips
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DannyDuberstein said:

Don't worry pal. You are being confronted by a 3 man crew wearing masks and jumping your counter, but you shouldn't have any fear for your life.

What a clown show take
It is incredible how stupid the modern left is. They ALL think this way. You won't find a single one who doesn't. The same types that say things like "why didn't police just fight or shoot the gun out of his hands?!". They don't live in reality. They watch Walking Dead and see 10 year old Carl landing head shots on the run from 50 ft away and think that is reality.
Agnes Moffitt Rollin 60's - RIP Casper and Lil Ricky - FREE GOOFY AND LUCKY!
jrdaustin
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Complete no bill from me.

Don't want to get stabbed? Then don't maliciously jump a counter and invade the space of a shop attendant.

End of story.
aTm2004
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So, no update? I thought we were told how it is.
Stasco
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Even though this is old news now, I'll throw in my two cents.

From a practical perspective, what this shop clerk did was risky, in that it's the sort of thing that could lead o a long prison sentence if you're in the wrong jurisdiction with a Soros DA.

That said, if I were on the jury, I'd vote to acquit all day every day.
 
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