When are repeated and flagrant violations of election laws enough?

5,001 Views | 95 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by We fixed the keg
aggiehawg
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AG
The hyper focus on "election fraud" is misguided since fraud is a particular legal construct that is hard to prove without discovery. Fraud requires a who, what, when, where, why type of pleading.

Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?

Quote:

Violations of the election code, however, are a different matter, and unfortunately, sometimes the public views election officials' bending of the rules as a harmless ignoring of technicalities. As the attorney in the Montgomery County Board of Elections case noted after "conceding" he was not alleging fraud: "The election code is technical."

That makes technical violations constitutionally significant because Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 grants state legislatures the ultimate authority to appoint the electors who choose the president: "Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress."

In Bush v. Gore, former Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist stressed the significance of this constitutional provision in a concurrence joined by Justice Clarence Thomas and former Justice Antonin Scalia. As Rehnquist wrote, that clause "convey(s) the broadest power of determination" and "leaves it to the legislature exclusively to define the method" of appointment of electors. Furthermore, "a significant departure from the legislative scheme for appointing Presidential electors presents a federal constitutional question."

The three concurring justices in Bush v. Gore concluded that the Florida Supreme Court's order directing election officials to count improperly marked ballots was a "significant departure from the legislative scheme," and "in a Presidential election the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must prevail." Accordingly, those justices would have declared the Florida recount unconstitutional under Article 2, Section 1, Clause 2.
Quote:

So, if the legislative branch mandates voter signatures, or verification of signatures, or internal secrecy sleeves, or counting only in the presences of poll-watchers from each party, it is no answer to say it is a technicality and not fraud at issue.
Quote:

Allowing state officials to fudge on the mandates of the election code raises a second significant constitutional issue, this one under the Equal Protection Clause, which served as the basis for the majority opinion in Bush v. Gore. The majority in Bush v. Gore held that the varying standards violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, reasoning: "The right to vote is protected in more than the initial allocation of the franchise. Equal protection applies as well to the manner of its exercise. Having once granted the right to vote on equal terms, the State may not, by later arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one person's vote over that of another."
Quote:

When state officials ignore the technicalities of the election code, however, it virtually guarantees voters will be denied equal treatment. The proof is in Pennsylvania. There, for instance, even though the election code prohibited inspecting ballots before Election Day, some county officials those in larger counties with access to mail-sorting machines that could weigh ballots weighed the ballots to determine if the voter failed to include the required inner secrecy sleeve.

Then those officials, again contrary to the election code, provided information to representatives of the Democratic Party so they could identify the voters whose ballots would be canceled. Voters whose election officials abided by the technicalities of the election code, however, did not receive that notice nor the opportunity to "cure" their ballot.
Clear equal protection violation.

Quote:

The majority in Bush v. Gore recognized the rightful place of election officials to interpret and apply the rules established by the legislative branch. This difference provides some leeway to states, which through interpretative guidance tweak the technicalities of the election code. But as in other areas of the law, such interpretations must be reasonable and must not violate the clearly expressed intent of the legislature.

The Supreme Court will likely decide where that line will be drawn in the coming days.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/13/partisans-cheating-by-ignoring-election-law-is-a-problem-as-big-as-vote-fraud/

Now for Turley's take.

Quote:

Nevada was one of the states that I identified before the election as one of three states that I was watching the most closely for election challenges. However, the problems raised in Nevada could raise concerns with shared elements to various states from Michigan to Pennsylvania. The reliance on questionable voter lists and the lack of authentication systems were raised months ago. The legal problem is not simply that such systems may allow for large numbers of ineligible votes but that they would not allow sufficient review of ballots to resolve such questions.

The criminal referral is substantially less than the "10,000" referenced earlier but the underlying allegation is still important. The early concern for many of us was that the system established in Clark County would be difficult to review for violations due to how the record was being preserved.

Quote:

I have repeatedly stated that we must not make assumptions on either side. My concern is that it is not clear how a court could review these ballots in Clark County if it agrees that there appears to be systemic problems. If the court believes that thousands votes illegally, that lack of a record could prove the undoing of the state officials. At some point, the burden can shift and courts demand proof that a problem was not systemic.
I fully agree. The can't hide behind incompetence when breaking the law. Setting up or allowing an election system to not protect the legal voters from having their vote diluted by illegal voters is in and of itself and equal protection violation. So let's flesh that out some more.

Quote:

If they cannot (show that the problem was not systemic), the question will be raised whether the same vulnerability existed in other states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, or Georgia. A court could be presented with a decision of when the unknowable becomes the unacceptable. If the court believes that thousands of unlawful votes were cases and the ultimate number impossible to confirm, the only certain way to address a systemic failure would be a special election a prospect that few judges would relish and even fewer would seriously consider.
LINK

bmks270
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AG
In the contested states hundreds of thousands of votes were illegally counted. I'm not claiming necessarily all votes were fraudulently cast, but there was no signature verifications in many instances, no proper oversight from poll watchers, etc.

My issue is with mail in ballots because the identity and eligibility status of the person casting the ballot cannot be verified.
TxAgPreacher
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S
It will never be enough for the wicked. HTH
All my political beliefs are informed by my religious ones. To flag my posts, and tell me to take it to R&P is intellectual cowardice. I will not debate interpretation, that is off topic, and trolling me.
TRADUCTOR
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It depends, but government is inefficient and will always be inefficient. That is my answer.
mwm
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The desire for power is insatiable. Power is their heroin. It makes them do really, really stupid stuff.
Jmiller
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aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
Cen-Tex
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AG
Time for the 'great reset'
UTExan
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Pennsylvania and Georgia are classic cases for actual audits and or revoting. The degree of suspected fraud is enormous in both states and justifies judicial review IMHO. I realize courts are extremely reluctant to step in (and I personally don't like Trump, just his policies) but his words about a stolen election ring true.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
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Martin Cash
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AG
Jmiller said:

aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
Have you been hiding under a rock with Dementia Joe and Commiela?
Red Red Wine
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AG
Enough? When will it be enough????

Once they taken over as complete DICTATORS and destroy our lives.

That is when they will have had enough.

OR


After we put a bullet in their heads or put them in prison!!!


It can only end in one of those three ways.
richardag
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Jmiller said:

aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
https://hereistheevidence.com/
https://thomisticthinker.com/skeptical-of-voter-fraud-in-2020-heres-your-evidence/
https://nationalfile.com/sworn-affidavits-georgia-recount-plagued-by-potential-voter-fraud-ballot-tampering/
Georgia recount may be as corrupt as the election itself
SWORN AFFIDAVITS: Georgia Recount Plagued by Potential Voter Fraud, Ballot Tampering
Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.
Edmund Burke
Rockdoc
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AG
This should be an interesting thread. In!
Keegan99
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AG
The Dems' entire strategy is predicated on the postulate that no judge will overturn a presidential election result. Thus the game is "get votes for your candidate into the count any way you can, because once a vote is counted, it will not be removed".
aggiehawg
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AG
There is an equitable doctrine called "unclean hands." It is pled as an affirmative defense claiming the plaintiffs have committed such wrongdoing as to not be worthy of recovery.

So when defendants, state election officials who broke state election codes by instructing subordinates to ignore the law and change the statutory procedures, come into court and claim they did nothing wrong and plaintiffs have not proved they did (other than violating the law) the court should take notice of the falsity of their defense.

And that is what is meant by shifting the burden back onto said officials to offer proof they did follow the law, which they can't.

What a mess.
BanderaAg956
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In Democrat Controlled Areas

Only when conservatives get caught doing it!
Liberals are Damn Liars! Terminate Section 230! It has been ONLY 72!hours since my last banning for defending my conservative values against liberal snowflake cupcakes and the LIBERAL Mod’s that protect them! Fairness is a myth! Stop trying to silence us! Decent LAW ABIDING HUMAN BEINGS MATTER and so do our voices. When you protect the wicked, the Anarchist, the deviant, you become One of them!

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Funky Winkerbean
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AG
So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
InfantryAg
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AG
The normalization of deviancy.
Fishin Texas Aggie 05
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AG
It depends on who takes power after the fraud
pacecar02
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I think you have to prove the individual things first, then build the larger picture. Too much to do all at once, plus maybe you get multiple attempts to make your case.
aggiehawg
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AG
Troutslime said:

So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
That is also fraught with danger because of the catch-22. Amistad Project filed multiple suits about these violations of state election laws before the election but their cases were dismissed because the harm had not yet occurred.

Then after the election when they raise the same issues, they are dismissed under the equitable doctrine of laches because they waited too long. It is utter BS and just example number 1,675, 896 of why our judiciary is FUBARed.
Jmiller
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Martin Cash said:

Jmiller said:

aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
Have you been hiding under a rock with Dementia Joe and Commiela?


Yeah, with Barr, the State SoSs, FBI and the majority of Americans. Reality is under that rock.
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
That is also fraught with danger because of the catch-22. Amistad Project filed multiple suits about these violations of state election laws before the election but their cases were dismissed because the harm had not yet occurred.

Then after the election when they raise the same issues, they are dismissed under the equitable doctrine of laches because they waited too long. It is utter BS and just example number 1,675, 896 of why our judiciary is FUBARed.


Has any media explained it in that manner? That's ridiculous.
aggiehawg
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AG
Troutslime said:

aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
That is also fraught with danger because of the catch-22. Amistad Project filed multiple suits about these violations of state election laws before the election but their cases were dismissed because the harm had not yet occurred.

Then after the election when they raise the same issues, they are dismissed under the equitable doctrine of laches because they waited too long. It is utter BS and just example number 1,675, 896 of why our judiciary is FUBARed.


Has any media explained it in that manner? That's ridiculous.
Cruz was tweeting about it the other day when he urged SCOTUS to accept one of the Pennsylvania cases. he used the "catch-22" phrase as well.

Which is precisely one of the reasons I started this thread. A case is filed stating unequivocably that state election officials are not following state election law, a crime. Yet the court refuses to issue an injunction against a crime being committed because plaintiffs can't directly show they will suffer direct harm, yet. That's just so whacked out to me. The last thing the court seems concerned with is violation of election laws as if they just don't mean a g-damn thing in the overall scheme of things.

Thus my question, when will the election crimes become so egregious that they become unacceptable to the courts?
Gaius Rufus
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aggiehawg said:

The hyper focus on "election fraud" is misguided since fraud is a particular legal construct that is hard to prove without discovery. Fraud requires a who, what, when, where, why type of pleading.

Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?

Quote:

Violations of the election code, however, are a different matter, and unfortunately, sometimes the public views election officials' bending of the rules as a harmless ignoring of technicalities. As the attorney in the Montgomery County Board of Elections case noted after "conceding" he was not alleging fraud: "The election code is technical."

That makes technical violations constitutionally significant because Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 grants state legislatures the ultimate authority to appoint the electors who choose the president: "Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress."

In Bush v. Gore, former Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist stressed the significance of this constitutional provision in a concurrence joined by Justice Clarence Thomas and former Justice Antonin Scalia. As Rehnquist wrote, that clause "convey(s) the broadest power of determination" and "leaves it to the legislature exclusively to define the method" of appointment of electors. Furthermore, "a significant departure from the legislative scheme for appointing Presidential electors presents a federal constitutional question."

The three concurring justices in Bush v. Gore concluded that the Florida Supreme Court's order directing election officials to count improperly marked ballots was a "significant departure from the legislative scheme," and "in a Presidential election the clearly expressed intent of the legislature must prevail." Accordingly, those justices would have declared the Florida recount unconstitutional under Article 2, Section 1, Clause 2.
Quote:

So, if the legislative branch mandates voter signatures, or verification of signatures, or internal secrecy sleeves, or counting only in the presences of poll-watchers from each party, it is no answer to say it is a technicality and not fraud at issue.
Quote:

Allowing state officials to fudge on the mandates of the election code raises a second significant constitutional issue, this one under the Equal Protection Clause, which served as the basis for the majority opinion in Bush v. Gore. The majority in Bush v. Gore held that the varying standards violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, reasoning: "The right to vote is protected in more than the initial allocation of the franchise. Equal protection applies as well to the manner of its exercise. Having once granted the right to vote on equal terms, the State may not, by later arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one person's vote over that of another."
Quote:

When state officials ignore the technicalities of the election code, however, it virtually guarantees voters will be denied equal treatment. The proof is in Pennsylvania. There, for instance, even though the election code prohibited inspecting ballots before Election Day, some county officials those in larger counties with access to mail-sorting machines that could weigh ballots weighed the ballots to determine if the voter failed to include the required inner secrecy sleeve.

Then those officials, again contrary to the election code, provided information to representatives of the Democratic Party so they could identify the voters whose ballots would be canceled. Voters whose election officials abided by the technicalities of the election code, however, did not receive that notice nor the opportunity to "cure" their ballot.
Clear equal protection violation.

Quote:

The majority in Bush v. Gore recognized the rightful place of election officials to interpret and apply the rules established by the legislative branch. This difference provides some leeway to states, which through interpretative guidance tweak the technicalities of the election code. But as in other areas of the law, such interpretations must be reasonable and must not violate the clearly expressed intent of the legislature.

The Supreme Court will likely decide where that line will be drawn in the coming days.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/13/partisans-cheating-by-ignoring-election-law-is-a-problem-as-big-as-vote-fraud/

Now for Turley's take.

Quote:

Nevada was one of the states that I identified before the election as one of three states that I was watching the most closely for election challenges. However, the problems raised in Nevada could raise concerns with shared elements to various states from Michigan to Pennsylvania. The reliance on questionable voter lists and the lack of authentication systems were raised months ago. The legal problem is not simply that such systems may allow for large numbers of ineligible votes but that they would not allow sufficient review of ballots to resolve such questions.

The criminal referral is substantially less than the "10,000" referenced earlier but the underlying allegation is still important. The early concern for many of us was that the system established in Clark County would be difficult to review for violations due to how the record was being preserved.

Quote:

I have repeatedly stated that we must not make assumptions on either side. My concern is that it is not clear how a court could review these ballots in Clark County if it agrees that there appears to be systemic problems. If the court believes that thousands votes illegally, that lack of a record could prove the undoing of the state officials. At some point, the burden can shift and courts demand proof that a problem was not systemic.
I fully agree. The can't hide behind incompetence when breaking the law. Setting up or allowing an election system to not protect the legal voters from having their vote diluted by illegal voters is in and of itself and equal protection violation. So let's flesh that out some more.

Quote:

If they cannot (show that the problem was not systemic), the question will be raised whether the same vulnerability existed in other states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, or Georgia. A court could be presented with a decision of when the unknowable becomes the unacceptable. If the court believes that thousands of unlawful votes were cases and the ultimate number impossible to confirm, the only certain way to address a systemic failure would be a special election a prospect that few judges would relish and even fewer would seriously consider.
LINK




It will be enough when somebody from the Trump campaign takes all of this "evidence" and successfully wins a lawsuit.

You are a former lawyer, why don't you tell us why it hasn't been presented in court?
Gaius Rufus
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aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
That is also fraught with danger because of the catch-22. Amistad Project filed multiple suits about these violations of state election laws before the election but their cases were dismissed because the harm had not yet occurred.

Then after the election when they raise the same issues, they are dismissed under the equitable doctrine of laches because they waited too long. It is utter BS and just example number 1,675, 896 of why our judiciary is FUBARed.


Has any media explained it in that manner? That's ridiculous.
Cruz was tweeting about it the other day when he urged SCOTUS to accept one of the Pennsylvania cases. he used the "catch-22" phrase as well.

Which is precisely one of the reasons I started this thread. A case is filed stating unequivocably that state election officials are not following state election law, a crime. Yet the court refuses to issue an injunction against a crime being committed because plaintiffs can't directly show they will suffer direct harm, yet. That's just so whacked out to me. The last thing the court seems concerned with is violation of election laws as if they just don't mean a g-damn thing in the overall scheme of things.

Thus my question, when will the election crimes become so egregious that they become unacceptable to the courts?


It will become unacceptable when sufficient evidence is actually presented to a court. The trump campaign has yet to allege voter fraud in a lawsuit.

As a former lawyer, why do you think that is?
aggiehawg
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AG
Quote:

It will become unacceptable when sufficient evidence is actually presented to a court. The trump campaign has yet to allege voter fraud in a lawsuit.

As a former lawyer, why do you think that is?
Read my OP and see if I need to dumb it down some more for you.
The Debt
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Quote:

It will become unacceptable when sufficient evidence is actually presented to a court. The trump campaign has yet to allege voter fraud in a lawsuit.

How many times does this need to be debunked?
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

aggiehawg said:

Troutslime said:

So is/was the play to address each infraction individually instead of trying to prove fraud?
That is also fraught with danger because of the catch-22. Amistad Project filed multiple suits about these violations of state election laws before the election but their cases were dismissed because the harm had not yet occurred.

Then after the election when they raise the same issues, they are dismissed under the equitable doctrine of laches because they waited too long. It is utter BS and just example number 1,675, 896 of why our judiciary is FUBARed.


Has any media explained it in that manner? That's ridiculous.
Cruz was tweeting about it the other day when he urged SCOTUS to accept one of the Pennsylvania cases. he used the "catch-22" phrase as well.

Which is precisely one of the reasons I started this thread. A case is filed stating unequivocably that state election officials are not following state election law, a crime. Yet the court refuses to issue an injunction against a crime being committed because plaintiffs can't directly show they will suffer direct harm, yet. That's just so whacked out to me. The last thing the court seems concerned with is violation of election laws as if they just don't mean a g-damn thing in the overall scheme of things.

Thus my question, when will the election crimes become so egregious that they become unacceptable to the courts?


Sounds like kicking the can down the road. Can "harm"
Only be realized after the convention of electorates?

Such bull*****
pacecar02
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Judicial laziness, is that a thing?
Garrelli 5000
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AG
Would be nice if next election staff prevents socks or dormant accounts from posting.

Take the trash out staff.
Martin Cash
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AG
Jmiller said:

Martin Cash said:

Jmiller said:

aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
Have you been hiding under a rock with Dementia Joe and Commiela?


Yeah, with Barr, the State SoSs, FBI and the majority of Americans. Reality is under that rock.
You have no grasp of what we're talking about. It's the SOSs who broke the law and ordered election officials to violate state law. That' is undisputed.
aggiehawg
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AG
pacecar02 said:

Judicial laziness, is that a thing?
Unfortunately, yes. You would think that reverse engineering the result a judge has already decided upon would require some mental gymnastics. But it really doesn't

When I first saw people throwing around "laches" in reference to a reason to dismiss a case filed less than eight months after the facts occurred that gave rise to the cause of action, I was shocked that anyone would take that theory seriously.

Obviously, I had overthought the process much more than the judge did.
Funky Winkerbean
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AG
Garrelli 5000 said:

Would be nice if next election staff prevents socks or dormant accounts from posting.




Here here.
unmade bed
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Garrelli 5000 said:

Would be nice if next election staff prevents socks or dormant accounts from posting.




Lol. You think Harris administration is going to allow opposition free speech on the internet next election? How quaint
Jmiller
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Martin Cash said:

Jmiller said:

Martin Cash said:

Jmiller said:

aggiehawg said:



Bit of what we do have an abundance is criminal activity in violation of state election law. We have that without any dispute. Why isn't that criminal activity enough for the courts to act? And if not now, will it ever be?




What!?
Have you been hiding under a rock with Dementia Joe and Commiela?


Yeah, with Barr, the State SoSs, FBI and the majority of Americans. Reality is under that rock.
You have no grasp of what we're talking about. It's the SOSs who broke the law and ordered election officials to violate state law. That' is undisputed.


Of course it is disputed. And it is a moot point because the ballots in dispute wouldn't change the outcome of the election.
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