flashplayer said:

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Look. The Affordable Care Act worked!

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It get us to the fewest % uninsured....

What is crazy is that Medicare is in-line with the rest of our healthcare expenditures per capita, which means it isn't just our sick old people keeping the cost up.

Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

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Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

Toptierag2018 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

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Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

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So like Obamacare with the public option?

Just because it's lower per capita doesn't mean it's better healthcare. There are three things that you can control in healthcare. Affordability, quality, and access. Most programs you can have 2 of the 3. Socialized usually specializes in one of those making it the "worst" of the programs in the world. Also, America has the highest obesity rate in the developed world causing Healthcare to sky rocket. Also, if you take away suicides from life expectancy, the statistic jumps I believe 4 or 5 years which would put us at 84 or 85 which would be one of the highest in the world.

Pelayo said:

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Toptierag2018 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

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Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

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The democrats aren't offering the German model. It's Canadian style Medicare for all your fellows are aiming at.

Most Americans want no part of that.

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Canadian Medicare isn't the same as Bernie's plan. In Canada, the provinces get some per capita funding from the national government, but largely fund and provide their own health plans. While they have national coverage requirements, the provinces will vary on their taxes and what coverage they provide. Most Canadians have private supplemental insurance plans.

Bernie's plan is for a centralized system with federal administration, absent of state input or regulation. If I'm not mistaken, he's in favor of abolishing private plans.

DannyDuberstein said:

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Medical advancement will grind to a turtle's pace as private capital runs from it. People are oblivious to the fact we've massively advanced it for the entire world because of our system

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Indeed. Far too many think profits are to blame and if we just eliminated profit motive expense would go down, when it is precisely the opposite that is true. If you took away all the profit in healthcare excluding big pharma that would fund less than a month of healthcare expenses.

Cactus Jack said:

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Pelayo said:

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Toptierag2018 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

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Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

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The democrats aren't offering the German model. It's Canadian style Medicare for all your fellows are aiming at.

Most Americans want no part of that.

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Canadian Medicare isn't the same as Bernie's plan. In Canada, the provinces get some per capita funding from the national government, but largely fund and provide their own health plans. While they have national coverage requirements, the provinces will vary on their taxes and what coverage they provide. Most Canadians have private supplemental insurance plans.

Bernie's plan is for a centralized system with federal administration, absent of state input or regulation. If I'm not mistaken, he's in favor of abolishing private plans.

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It is similar in regards to how private healthcare is treated.

Once government has a monopsony on healthcare rationing will get rather ugly.

The other aspect, the reason we spend so much on healthcare is because we demand more healthcare. I rather spend money on extra testing and opinions rather than get ****ed by a government committee.

I'd also contend that if we are going to include "under-insured", every idiot that waits for months on lists in these leftist utopias is under-insured. Hell some of them die waiting.

In Germany, the government doesn't provide insurance at all. It's all done via 3rd parties that compete.

A novel concept.

hbtheduce said:

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The other aspect, the reason we spend so much on healthcare is because we demand more healthcare. I rather spend money on extra testing and opinions rather than get ****ed by a government committee.

I'd also contend that if we are going to include "under-insured", every idiot that waits for months on lists in these leftist utopias is under-insured. Hell some of them die waiting.

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Yeah but it's equitable(equally bad for most) so it's all good.

I do agree with Bernie (did I just say that?) on the cause of the problem of high prescription costs.

It's a corrupted system that isn't based on free market principles. There is mass collusion. Analogue drugs that are barely (if even) more effective than cheaper generic drugs are aggressively marketed to doctors who prescribe them to unwitting consumers.

Heart meds are notorious for this.

Newer meds like Brilinta are often 100x more expensive than older generically-available meds like clopidogrel (Plavix) but are not even close to 100x more effective. In fact, two major studies published this year showed Brilinta and clopidogrel were not only nearly identical in performance but Brilinta caused MORE side effects! Guess which one your doctor will give you if you get a new heart stent? Brilinta. Why? Because an initial study (sponsored by the manufacturer) showed it was slightly more effective, and it was subsequently made into the standard of care by Cardiology associations.

Brilinta: $400 per month. Clopidogrel: $4 per month.

It's this **** that drives up the cost of prescriptions. Aggressive marketing and prescribing of new brand name drugs that do nothing to improve anything.

Cactus Jack said:

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I do agree with Bernie (did I just say that?) on the cause of the problem of high prescription costs.

It's a corrupted system that isn't based on free market principles. There is mass collusion. Analogue drugs that are barely (if even) more effective than cheaper generic drugs are aggressively marketed to doctors who prescribe them to unwitting consumers.

Heart meds are notorious for this.

Newer meds like Brilinta are often 100x more expensive than older generically-available meds like clopidogrel (Plavix) but are not even close to 100x more effective. In fact, two major studies published this year showed Brilinta and clopidogrel were not only nearly identical in performance but Brilinta caused MORE side effects! Guess which one your doctor will give you if you get a new heart stent? Brilinta. Why? Because an initial study (sponsored by the manufacturer) showed it was slightly more effective, and it was subsequently made into the standard of care by Cardiology associations.

Brilinta: $400 per month. Clopidogrel: $4 per month.

It's this **** that drives up the cost of prescriptions. Aggressive marketing and prescribing of new brand name drugs that do nothing to improve anything.

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As usual, the reason drugs cost so much: govt interference.

It costs upwards of several billion dollars (with a "B"), to get a drug to market dur to regulations. Get govt out of the way.

cevans_40 said:

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Toptierag2018 said:

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Healthcare spending per capita:

United States $11,702 - 92 million uninsured/under-insured

Germany $6,646 - 0 uninsured

Canada $5,418 - 0 uninsured

France $5,376 - 0 uninsured

Japan $4,823 - 0 uninsured

United Kingdom $4,653 - 0 uninsured

Finland $4,578 - 0 uninsured

South Korea $3,384 - 0 uninsured

I see this as a red flag. Is this something that can be looked at?

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And yet, when their lives depend on it, more people come to the US for treatments.

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That's the telling thing. It suggests something.

Also, how does the list compare to defense expenditures and ability to fight a war? Is it taking that into account? Most of those are sponging off our defense umbrella.

Toptierag2018 said:

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Healthcare spending per capita:

United States $11,702 - 92 million uninsured/under-insured

Germany $6,646 - 0 uninsured

Canada $5,418 - 0 uninsured

France $5,376 - 0 uninsured

Japan $4,823 - 0 uninsured

United Kingdom $4,653 - 0 uninsured

Finland $4,578 - 0 uninsured

South Korea $3,384 - 0 uninsured

I see this as a red flag. Is this something that can be looked at?

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I wouldn't care if the uninsured/underinsured was 300 million as long as I am at the front of the line and get the best treatment. I'm willing to pay for the privilege.

The beauty of rationing.

Oooooh lets do tax rates now!

Toptierag2018 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

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Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

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Then move to one of those countries.

Pelayo said:

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Toptierag2018 said:

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Ellis Wyatt said:

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I think you should spend your own money on your own health care. Buy what you can afford.

---

Some of those countries listed do not offer single payer, but a mix of public and private insurance to achieve universal healthcare. I think one of the big issues with trying to get people behind it in the US is people like Bernie constantly equate Medicare for all and universal healthcare, when they are not in fact the same thing. If the public was educated on the German or Dutch model, I guarantee it would find widespread support in the US.

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The democrats aren't offering the German model. It's Canadian style Medicare for all your fellows are aiming at.

Most Americans want no part of that.

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Most democrats want no part of that, Bernie lost, twice.

Toptierag2018 said:

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Healthcare spending per capita:

United States $11,702 - 92 million uninsured/under-insured

Germany $6,646 - 0 uninsured

Canada $5,418 - 0 uninsured

France $5,376 - 0 uninsured

Japan $4,823 - 0 uninsured

United Kingdom $4,653 - 0 uninsured

Finland $4,578 - 0 uninsured

South Korea $3,384 - 0 uninsured

I see this as a red flag. Is this something that can be looked at?

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lol, most of those countries are popcorn farts when it comes to number of people and they do not have the sheer number of people we have that comprise the underbelly of our population.

The red flag I see is that if the 92 million want insurance or more insurance, they should work harder and then buy it.

70% of spending on each person's "health care" happens in the last 3 years of their life.

The other countries on the list let old people die with dignity or have death panels.

USA profits off extending the lifespan of the elderly.