It's not manufacturing of anything beyond prototypes at this point.

You're making something that has a +50% chance of ending up becoming one hell of a firework before it finishes it's flight, and is not intended for re-use..... why spend that much time making it look pretty?

Kind of like the Apollo little joe.... sure, they made it look great, but it broke into thousands of pieces, and was never meant to be more than a test vehicle anyway. The cosmetics did it zero good.

Is it just me, or has that helicopter been on the verge of first flight for about 20 years now?

Moving at Nasa speed. Also, a helicopter in that atmosphere is silly. They coulda had a blimp/dirigible thingy which would have had many times the range/endurance to go look at stuff the tiny chopper does, but I guess they didn't want to risk it ever blowing away in a storm. In that thin atmosphere the helicopter has to have super high RPM's and the little battery is only good for like 90 second hops.

No real news other than the nasa-bwxt partnership below expanding (some clickbait, this contract has nothing to do with spaceX or starship), but it is an interesting idea, glad to see it moving forward.



BWXT release;

Quote:

---

Under the terms of a $9.4 million, one-year contract awarded to its BWXT Advanced Technologies LLC subsidiary, BWXT will focus primarily on nuclear fuel design and engineering activities. Specifically, BWXT will produce fuel kernels, coat the fuel kernels, design materials and manufacturing processes for fuel assemblies, and further develop conceptual reactor designs, among other activities.

The work will be conducted primarily at BWXT's Advanced Technology Laboratory, Specialty Fuel Facility, and Lynchburg Technology Center, and it will involve more than 50 employees.

"BWXT has a decades-long history of supporting NASA, and we are very proud to continue our efforts for the country," said Ken Camplin, BWXT Nuclear Services Group president. "Our designers and engineers have been working with teams at NASA, Department of Energy national laboratories and academia to help the United States accomplish one of humankind's ultimate goals: to send astronauts to another planet and return them safely. This is exciting work for us, and it demonstrates the incredible diversity of talent and expertise that our company has developed."

BWXT has been making significant progress on NASA's NTP initiative, which has progressed from the Space Technology Mission Directorate's Game Changing Development program to its Technology Demonstration Mission program. BWXT's progress to date includes evaluating various fission fuel and reactor options, developing a conceptual reactor design, tailoring the fuel design to use High Assay Low Enriched Uranium (HALEU), and delivering specialty fuel particles for testing.

In 2020, as part of NASA's in-space demonstration mission, BWXT delivered a study exploring several reactor configurations and fuel forms capable of delivering space nuclear propulsion. Two of the designs focused on power levels suitable for space demonstration in the near term. A third design was developed that leverages more advanced technology and higher power levels that could be ready in time for a Mars mission.

Rocket engines based on NTP technology are designed to propel a spacecraft from Earth orbit to Mars and back. Nuclear Thermal Propulsion for spaceflight has a number of advantages over chemical-based designs. In particular, NTP provides a low mass capability that allows astronauts to travel through space faster, thereby reducing supply needs and lowering their exposures to cosmic radiation.

---

More.

Quote:

---

The TRISO production line offers the capability to manufacture an array of nuclear fuel, including uranium carbide, uranium dioxide and uranium nitride. The TRISO production line also provides the flexibility of any fuel enrichment the facility and process is qualified to produce TRISO-coated kernels with enrichment levels from depleted uranium up to highly enriched.

Many of the proposed NTP core designs call for spherical fuel kernels, such as those that BWXT has successfully made on its TRISO fuel production line.

The TRISO line has been demonstrated to produce kernel diameters down to the range of 200 250 m, with potential to go smaller or larger. This provides the flexibility to meet potential fuel particle requirements for an NTP reactor.

Duling explained that the TRISO production line operates in batches, which offers the flexibility to run separate batches of the various fuel types with minimal transition time. This flexibility would allow NASA and others to leverage the same fuel line and pursue different fuel forms to optimize their own design and applications.

Dr. Keith Rider, one of BWXT's scientists who is helping develop BWXT's NTP fuel manufacturing processes, explained that NTP places demands on its fuel that are more stringent than any other application.

"It's common for a pressurized water reactor used by a utility for power generation to operate with coolant temperatures of something like 580 K (~585F). In comparison, a hydrogen-cooled NTP reactor operates at five to eight times that temperature."

What's more, said Rider, the performance of the rocket is directly tied to the maximum operating temperature of the fuel in an environment with high thermal gradients and rapid temperature changes.
"We're using a mix of off-the-shelf components and some of our own proprietary technology to produce nuclear fuel that meets NASA's performance requirements."

---

So how do they test this nuclear engine concept? In a giant vacuum chamber?

Not sure but I would guess specific impulse/thrust can be calculated vs. a pure vacuum if run even at 1 full atmosphere. They build this type of fuel/reactor (or very similar) for stuff like ships etc. already. Pretty interesting.

bmks270 said:

---

So how do they test this nuclear engine concept? In a giant vacuum chamber?

---

The NERVA project did open-loop ground testing in the 1970s. In normal circumstances, it should not release significant radioactivity. Nowadays, I doubt that would fly. They would first bench test the individual components - turbopump, manifolds, etc - without the nuclear heat source. The reactor itself would probably get tested in a closed-loop laboratory setting. I wager they would not perform a fully-integrated ground test with nuclear fuel.

Frankly, I think the window of opportunity for NTR in human spaceflight has come and gone. If you're going to truck the complexity of a nuclear reactor into space, it's a waste just to use it for heating liquid hydrogen. Inside the orbit of Mars, a solar electric propulsion system is more mass efficient than NTR. Beyond the orbit of Mars, then you need nuclear power, but you definitely want the specific impulse advantage of electric propulsion and nuclear-electric becomes the better option. The narrow use case for NTR is high-thrust / higher-ISP departure maneuver from low-Earth orbit direct to the Moon or Mars. There are easier ways around that problem. Starship will refuel its chemical rockets in LEO and NASA is architecting around the Gateway concept in a higher energy orbit.

Okay, but my concern was firing a stream of hot hydrogen into the air, won't the exhaust react with the oxygen in the air and combust? I guess current ground testing shoots a giant flame so maybe this would be no different. Or maybe the velocity would be so high there wouldn't be a flame.

bmks270 said:

---

Okay, but my concern was firing a stream of hot hydrogen into the air, won't the exhaust react with the oxygen in the air and combust? I guess current ground testing shoots a giant flame so maybe this would be no different. Or maybe the velocity would be so high there wouldn't be a flame.

---

Fire is what air combusting looks like. There's enough other stuff in the air like nitrogen and CO2 to keep it from getting out of control.

I know fire is from air combustion, so I was wondering how they would test these things. A large vacuum chamber or can they accommodate the firing of hydrogen into the possibly reactive sea level atmosphere. Exit conditions may not sustain a flame, or the flame might be manageable it sounds like.

And a side note, there is relatively little CO2 in the air.

bmks270 said:

---

I know fire is from air combustion, so I was wondering how they would test these things. A large vacuum chamber or can they accommodate the firing of hydrogen into the possibly reactive sea level atmosphere. Exit conditions may not sustain a flame, or the flame might be manageable it sounds like.

And a side note, there is relatively little CO2 in the air.

---

I'm not sure about this rocket, but if it's like VASIMR, I've seen that in operation in a lab. They can scale it down and operate it at relatively low power. A plasma exits the engine and it is in a vacuum. It's just very tenuous. In the case of VASIMR they had planned on scaling it up and testing it on the space station, which is one application where it's needed for occasional boosts.

bmks270 said:

---

Okay, but my concern was firing a stream of hot hydrogen into the air, won't the exhaust react with the oxygen in the air and combust? I guess current ground testing shoots a giant flame so maybe this would be no different. Or maybe the velocity would be so high there wouldn't be a flame.

---

In the 60s, they just blasted that **** into the air and were legends:

Nuclear rocketry is an interesting topic, I cannot see any senator or politician not having an absolute stroke at having to explain to the pearl clutches how they allowed a launch in THEIR state or district.

We have trouble just moving waste to storage facilities

Ag_of_08 said:

---

Nuclear rocketry is an interesting topic, I cannot see any senator or politician not having an absolute stroke at having to explain to the pearl clutches how they allowed a launch in THEIR state or district.

We have trouble just moving waste to storage facilities

---

Time to dust off the plans for the Sea Dragon.

If only some eccentric billionaire would build offshore launch platforms called fear and panic, and a giant ass rocket to go with it ;-).

crew dragon will be undocking and re-docking this morning in about an hour.

So, as many guessed, the 'little' fire at the top of the engines sounds like is what caused the crash. A 'small methane leak' is a big problem around those pumps/avionics.

In a surprise to absolutely no one, it looks like the Russians are trying to copy F9, and Chicoms Japanese Starship (sort of).

The Chinese are making a falcon knockoff as well.


I dont have an issue with the Japanese, as long as any tech they're using copied from spacex or American companies in general is acquired through legitimate means...Japan has been a consistent and quality space flight partner

If the Russians and Chinese haven't already stolen designs for Falcon, Merlin, Raptor I would be shocked.

I'm half surprised Elon hasn't made it all open sourced.

https://myrgv.com/local-news/2021/04/04/musks-invitation-to-relocate-may-further-burden-market/

Quote:

---

Even while the Federal Aviation Administration is taking a second look at SpaceX's Boca Chica rocket building/testing operation to determine if it's still within legally allowable parameters, the company's founder and CEO Elon Musk is plunging ahead with accelerated development of SpaceX's Starship Mars rocket.

To ramp up production and development even more, though, Musk needs more people beyond the 1,000 employees give or take now working on Starship at Boca Chica. On Tuesday, less than two hours after the Starship SN11 prototype blew up and deposited rocket parts around the launch site and vicinity near the end of an apparently otherwise successful flight test, Musk, who has 50.1 million Twitter followers, tweeted out a call for people to join him in South Texas.

"Please consider moving to Starbase or greater Brownsville/South Padre area in Texas & encourage friends to do so! SpaceX's hiring needs for engineers, technicians, builders & essential support personnel of all kinds are growing rapidly," he wrote.

Musk also predicted that Starbase, on the site of the current Boca Chica Village adjacent to the Starship production complex, "will grow by several people over the next year or two."

The only problem is, where are they going to live?

Nick Mitchell-Bennett, executive director of Come Dream Come Build, formerly the Community Development Corporation of Brownsville, said Brownsville is already suffering from a housing shortage without thousands more descending on the area practically overnight.

"I would love for the guy to invest in kind of a house trust fund," he said. "He's telling people to come down here. We don't have enough room for you right now."

Mitchell-Bennett said he's not opposed to the growth opportunity but that Brownsville and the area need to be smart about it and not repeat the mistakes of other cities that have experienced rapid growth.

---

And it goes on from there.

Ag_of_08 said:

---

The Chinese are making a falcon knockoff as well.


I dont have an issue with the Japanese, as long as any tech they're using copied from spacex or American companies in general is acquired through legitimate means...Japan has been a consistent and quality space flight partner

---

The Chinese are probably just waiting for the final version of Starship to copy it, why waste time on developmental proof of concept stuff? Same with the Raptor.

I don't begrudge the Japanese program either, but as Elon hinted I don't think it's intended for interplanetary stuff, just cheaper stuff to orbit (which is great). They've also tended to miss their timeline goals the past 20 years (and are subject to government funding/politics changes, as per nasa). Honestly, kinda embarrassed I thought it was the CCP at first glance.

What would be great is if Musk committed funds to develop/pay for more blast proof windows for future SH launches as part of the housing code for BCV. The politics are probably only going to get more complicated, locally, and I am not if sure he anticipates how to play that game, or not.

nortex97 said:

---

What would be great is if Musk committed funds to develop/pay for more blast proof windows for future SH launches as part of the housing code for BCV. The politics are probably only going to get more complicated, locally, and I am not if sure he anticipates how to play that game, or not.

---

Aren't there only like 3 or 4 hold outs left there? Crazy.

PJYoung said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

What would be great is if Musk committed funds to develop/pay for more blast proof windows for future SH launches as part of the housing code for BCV. The politics are probably only going to get more complicated, locally, and I am not if sure he anticipates how to play that game, or not.

---

Aren't there only like 3 or 4 hold outs left there? Crazy.

---

I think that's something I've read, not real sure. I think Mary Boca Chica gal or whatever her twitter handle is, is one of them, then I have to guess the house Everyday Astronaut leased to build his "mars" studio in is another.

Basically, I think they are fans but I also think they are de facto holding up SpaceX at the same time, but it's all a bit cryptic who is doing what there to me (not an insider or internet sleuth at all). It's essentially now a gold mine for the property owners I guess, on what was/is essentially a glorified craptastic trailer park. Our eminent domain laws aren't helping SpaceX out either, imho.

nortex97 said:

---

PJYoung said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

What would be great is if Musk committed funds to develop/pay for more blast proof windows for future SH launches as part of the housing code for BCV. The politics are probably only going to get more complicated, locally, and I am not if sure he anticipates how to play that game, or not.

---

Aren't there only like 3 or 4 hold outs left there? Crazy.

---

I have to guess the house Everyday Astronaut leased to build his "mars" studio in is another.

---

I don't think residents are allowed to stay in BCV for launches although SpaceX employees watch from around there. Tim Dodd is over in Port Isabel now (it looks like) at a place called Long Island.

I think that is where it has to be. His M.A.R.S. Studio B is right at 5 miles from the pad. That is the only place that really makes sense.

Brad06ag said:

---

I think that is where it has to be. His M.A.R.S. Studio B is right at 5 miles from the pad. That is the only place that really makes sense.

---

Yeah the view from there over the canal fits 100%.

PJYoung said:

---

Brad06ag said:

---

I think that is where it has to be. His M.A.R.S. Studio B is right at 5 miles from the pad. That is the only place that really makes sense.

---

Yeah the view from there over the canal fits 100%.

---

Yep, Verified it from Cameron County CAD.

Ag_of_08 said:

---

Nuclear rocketry is an interesting topic, I cannot see any senator or politician not having an absolute stroke at having to explain to the pearl clutches how they allowed a launch in THEIR state or district.

We have trouble just moving waste to storage facilities

---

You wouldn't want to use nuclear propulsion anyways to take off from the ground. It's better for long duration space flights and lacks the kick needed to blast off from the ground. (unless of course you're talking about something like a nuclear pulse engine )

TexAgs91 said:

---

Ag_of_08 said:

---

Nuclear rocketry is an interesting topic, I cannot see any senator or politician not having an absolute stroke at having to explain to the pearl clutches how they allowed a launch in THEIR state or district.

We have trouble just moving waste to storage facilities

---

You wouldn't want to use nuclear propulsion anyways to take off from the ground. It's better for long duration space flights and lacks the kick needed to blast off from the ground. (unless of course you're talking about something like a nuclear pulse engine )

---

Correct. It only really works for interplanetary propulsive efficiency (plus, if we can get hydrogen from Mars/one of her moons...it makes more sense). Thermal nuclear propulsion is a heck of a lot safer than some of what the Soviets/DoD wanted to blast off into space in the 60's-80's.

I am not sure anything can ever pass the "Bernie Sanders" standard for 'green enough, once we've done enough social welfare' for space exploration, but I don't think this tech. (nor the 'marbles' the radioactive materials are safely embedded in) poses much risk to the small inhabited area around the launch site.

I dont believe it poses a risk, and I was not talking about the thing being used for launch propulsion.

It takes decades of legal battles to move a cask of nuclear waste inside a huge concrete container specifically designed to do so ....because no senator wants it passing through their district. Every pearl clutcher know to man freaks the hell out that something might happen, if this other thing happens, but only at this .2* impact range and...and....and..." THINK OF THE CHILDREN "!!!!


You really think those people, and the countries we would launch across eventually, wouldn't absolutely lose their collective minds if we proposed to launch a nuclear reactor on a rocket? My lord I can already HEAR the press having that field day

We have launched several. They are on Curiosity and Percy and go back to Voyager. IIRC they are loaded only to vehicles at the launch site right before launch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

Yep, really common.

Mathguy64 said:

---

We have launched several. They are on Curiosity and Percy and go back to Voyager. IIRC they are loaded only to vehicles at the launch site right before launch.

---

Correct. Cassini, new horizons, and Perseverance most recently. Still, while those were land-based launches, the actual nuclear content was miniscule compared to a reactor for thermal interplanetary travel. So, he has a point, which I respect.

The Voyagers were a different scale, and I figure, roughly, such a ship for a trip to Mars and back would be an order of magnitude (100-1000x?) greater in total materiel (yet safer as far as the marbles/reactor are concerned). Heck, maybe the marbles could be separately sea launched from elsewhere. Happy to have someone here correct/educate me. I really dunno...

Yet, if launched at sea I am not sure how many more hurdles it really would have to go thru as I doubt anything from the caribbean to the west coast of africa would present that much trouble from a paperwork/regulatory perspective (and past that point it would dissipate in the atmosphere if it blew up).