[Disturbing] Another example of police not being prepared for a lethal suspect

31,170 Views | 154 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by PrincessButtercup
Waffledynamics
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Times like this really highlight when they really shouldn't trust the suspect. Warning: this is pretty upsetting at the end. The guy plays dumb with them the whole time, too.



GenericAggie
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Waffledynamics said:

Times like this really highlight when they really shouldn't trust the suspect. Warning: this is pretty upsetting at the end. The guy plays dumb with them the whole time, too.






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Blah blah
FriendlyAg
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wtf
who?mikejones
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Did he get one of the officers weapons?
ChemEng94
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That guy should fry. Does anyone know the outcome for the officers and the perp?
Fenrir
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One died. I believe the walking sack of crap is awaiting trial iirc.
ChemEng94
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Thanks for the info. Sorry to hear about the cop passing. I could never be a cop since every interaction could be your last. God bless the men and women who put their lives on the line for us.
Pelayo
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Read this today, not wholly applicable here but does make a very good point.

Quote:

"Currently, what is generally the requirement in most police departments in most states is kind of a sliding scale [of force] that leaves a great deal of discretion to officers," says Suzanne Luban, a clinical supervising attorney and lecturer at Stanford Law School. "So officers are told to use the degree of force they deem reasonably necessary under the circumstances, and usually the part that's not said, but it is included in that, is to attain compliance."

But as Luban notes, "compliance" isn't always worth potentially maiming or killing someone, especially when the underlying crime is a petty misdemeanor. She cites cases like Israel Hernandez-Llach, an 18-year-old graffiti artist who died after being tased by Miami Beach police in 2013. The Miami state attorney found the use of force was legally justified, although the Miami Beach Police Department later settled a civil lawsuit filed by Hernandez-Llach's family.
Regulating Use of Force
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WhoopN06
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/30/us/tulsa-oklahoma-police-dead-traffic-stop-shooting/index.html
lobopride
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Is it just me or would a police dog come in handy in a situation like this? The perp refuses to exit vehicle. Call for a K9 and let the dog get him out.
The man who has no refuge in himself, who lives, so to speak in his front rooms, in the outer whirlwind of things and opinions, is not properly a personality at all. He floats with the current, who does not guide himself according to higher principles, who has no ideal, no convictions - such a man is a mere article of the world's furniture - a thing to be moved, instead of a living and moving being - an echo, not a voice.
rgag12
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Good thing this happened in OK, the perp will get convicted and fry. If this happened in CA, OR, or WA the shooter would walk and get a million dollar civil settlement.
DrAg93
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Sick. Pisses me off that the fing tasers don't work. Keep seeing this in the cases that escalate. Tasers need to work. They also need additional non-lethal means of incapacitating these losers. They don't know if it's just some dumbass worried about some pot or a homicidal maniac.
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Fenrir
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Btw guys attorney wanted video released
Quote:

He says the video contradicts two things that Tulsa Police have said, one; that Ware fired three additional rounds into Sergeant. Craig Johnson, and two; that he walked away.


I can t say I agree with his claims.
dermdoc
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Fenrir said:

Btw guys attorney wanted video released
Quote:

He says the video contradicts two things that Tulsa Police have said, one; that Ware fired three additional rounds into Sergeant. Craig Johnson, and two; that he walked away.


I can t say I agree with his claims.
So who else could have shot the officer? This is sick.
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zgolfz85
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Infuriating that this is the first I've seen of this....all the while I'm told to feel sorry for rapists, lady beaters and pedos. God I hate this year.
Old Tom Morris
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Cops don't shoot people because of racism. They shoot because of fear. And this is an example why that fear exists. These situations go bad in a fraction of a second
OneAnd19More
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The officer who was killed is the one who's POV we see in the video. If BLM/Antifa gets their way, we will see a lot more of this.
GottaRide
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S
This is a direct result of de-escalation training. Ask, then tell, then make. But they can't do that anymore.
unmade bed
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Welp, that does it. I'm going to burn down a Cracker Barrell and loot the **** out of a Jos A Banks.
Old Tom Morris
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I will hit The Container Store
atmtws
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I'll loot Mahogany's.

This is sickening. That officer would still be alive if he hadn't given that POS a dozen chances to surrender. I guarantee you the officer was second guessing all of his training, experience, and current politics to conclude this dude is just high and drunk and wouldn't actually become a physical threat. This is war. Not against this people like Ware, but against the media that pushes the narrative that makes LEOs second guess themselves before pulling the trigger (whether it be a taser or lead).

My heart breaks for both officers and their families.
The_Fox
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Pelayo said:

Read this today, not wholly applicable here but does make a very good point.

Quote:

"Currently, what is generally the requirement in most police departments in most states is kind of a sliding scale [of force] that leaves a great deal of discretion to officers," says Suzanne Luban, a clinical supervising attorney and lecturer at Stanford Law School. "So officers are told to use the degree of force they deem reasonably necessary under the circumstances, and usually the part that's not said, but it is included in that, is to attain compliance."

But as Luban notes, "compliance" isn't always worth potentially maiming or killing someone, especially when the underlying crime is a petty misdemeanor. She cites cases like Israel Hernandez-Llach, an 18-year-old graffiti artist who died after being tased by Miami Beach police in 2013. The Miami state attorney found the use of force was legally justified, although the Miami Beach Police Department later settled a civil lawsuit filed by Hernandez-Llach's family.
Regulating Use of Force
As a former LEO, my rule is comply or die. You want to fight, that happens in court.
Pelayo
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Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
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The_Fox
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Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
Pelayo
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The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
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JB99
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In hindsight what could they have done different? The damn tasers are worthless. Only thing I can think off is to sick a dog on the guy while holding him at gunpoint. He pulled that gun out of nowhere quick.
fka ftc
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Wiry ***** tasers from The Hangover don't work. Give them the cattleprod devices. Up the amperage.

Edited. Add full liability protection if police use anything other than firearm to try and subdue.
The_Fox
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Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Pelayo
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The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Comply or die?

Does that include someone you are citing for jay walking?
If they fight with me? Yes. I never cited anyone for jay walking by the way.

I was a fed for most of my time so it was felonies. But this growing wave of resisting the police needs to be snuffed out. You fight in court. Period.
That's interesting to me. So if the jay walker ignored your commands and kept walking maybe even runs away they are at risk of dying for not being compliant?
Do doctors not read anymore? I said fight. We can try some synonyms: resist, combat, grapple.
Do cops and prosecutors answer direct questions?
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UTExan
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The_Fox said:

Pelayo said:

Read this today, not wholly applicable here but does make a very good point.

Quote:

"Currently, what is generally the requirement in most police departments in most states is kind of a sliding scale [of force] that leaves a great deal of discretion to officers," says Suzanne Luban, a clinical supervising attorney and lecturer at Stanford Law School. "So officers are told to use the degree of force they deem reasonably necessary under the circumstances, and usually the part that's not said, but it is included in that, is to attain compliance."

But as Luban notes, "compliance" isn't always worth potentially maiming or killing someone, especially when the underlying crime is a petty misdemeanor. She cites cases like Israel Hernandez-Llach, an 18-year-old graffiti artist who died after being tased by Miami Beach police in 2013. The Miami state attorney found the use of force was legally justified, although the Miami Beach Police Department later settled a civil lawsuit filed by Hernandez-Llach's family.
Regulating Use of Force
As a former LEO who survived, my rule is comply or die. You want to fight, that happens in court.


FIFY and that is my experience as well.
“... the reason life works at all is that not everyone in your tribe is nuts on the same day.
Anne Lamott
Infection_Ag11
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Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
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fka ftc
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Run your mouth all day long. Once you are getting cuffed, comply or die applies. If you brandish a weapon against LEO, whether you try and use it or not, then you should just die.
MaxPower
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I'm guessing most of the time two officers are expected to handle one knucklehead. The only thing I can say tactically is they would have been better off trying to get the gun out of his hand than retreating but you never know how you're gonna react in that situation.
fka ftc
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Infection_Ag11 said:

Shooter needs to get the needle, but in hindsight the officers would have been better served holding back and waiting for more help. He clearly wasn't going anywhere, and even if they hadn't been shot all of that wasn't worth it over such a petty offense.
I guess they should have let a few more show up, cuff him, put a spit hood on and wait for the ambulance. Ask the Rochester cops how that works,
Infection_Ag11
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JB99 said:

In hindsight what could they have done different?


Wait for more officers and not try to remove a fairly stout individual from the car by themselves, especially given the petty nature of the events that led to them being there in the first place.

They put themselves in what I perceive as unnecessary danger.
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