Hundreds abused by Southern Baptist leaders, workers

4,930 Views | 72 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by Ellis Wyatt
FrioAg 00
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Redstone said:


- Hierarchy (instituted by Christ, btw)


According to Catholics.

Others, however, believe the exact opposite when interpreting his direct teaching about priests. Most believe he did this for the exact reason of getting away from having imperfect humans between man and God.
Muy
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DD88 said:

Baptist churches are autonomous (self-ruling), so you don't have the same top-down structure as some others.

That said, there is no excuse for any church not to do a thorough background check on any staff member and reasonable checks on volunteers.


This. And if this has happened, go after every one of them, and unlike what's happened in the Catholic Church, apply the appropriate penalties under the law.
Tom Doniphon
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We had an issue at my church (SBC) with a youth minister - he's likely listed in the OP link. He was a child predator that preyed on young boys... although he'd never touched a child at our church, a number of teenage boys from his previous church were abused. We ran every back ground check and reference you can imagine - unfortunately, as someone stated above - they aren't forward looking and he had zero criminal record of this behavior.

I was serving in a position of leadership in my church when one of the boys from his previous church went to his parents who went directly to their local police. They in turn called our local police and I coordinated with them to have him arrested immediately. (Pretty sure he just got out of prison - this unfolded about 12 or 13 years ago).

No religion, doctrine, denomination, etc is outside the reach of being attacked by satan - he roams the earth as a roaring lion, seeking who he may devour.



Ellis Wyatt
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Ellis Wyatt said:

That said, I am aware of one man at my church growing up who molested a teenaged boy who was a little slow mentally. When it was discovered, our church leaders immediately turned the man in to police. They also formally kicked the guy out of our church. When they found out what church he later moved to, they notified church leadership there to prevent it from happening again.
I forgot to add the juiciest part of the story:

15 years or so later, said older man picked up a young adult male, gave him a ride, and tried to seduce him. The younger man tied him to his bed, best the hell out of him, and cut his throat. He then set the house on fire and left the older man for dead. He eventually died of smoke inhalation, lying in the mess that he had made. He was such a pervert, he couldn't resist his urges and it killed him.
DallasAg 94
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pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

It is terrible, but most of those SBC churches didn't try to hide or protect the perpetrator. They are largely in prison. In the case of the Catholic Church... the priests were shuffled around, relocated and mostly avoided criminal prosecution. In the recent Dallas Diocese disclosure... many of the identified were deceased, or their where-abouts were largely unknown.

Whatever sanctimonious spin helps you sleep at night.


You're not trying to imply I am fine with the report because, at least it isn't as bad as the Catholic Church, as if I brought the Catholic Church into the discussion simply to make it look not so bad?

The irony of the opposite... someone implying the SBC is equivalent to what the RCC has done...

What helps me sleep at night is knowing the churches for which I have been members, take these thing incredibly serious, and do what they can to reduce these things from happening. Whatever the RCC does doesn't affect my day to day, and the only reason I mention them in this thread, is someone wanted to equate the 2.

Had that not happened, I probably would have mentioned a story like this one:
https://www.foxnews.com/story/texas-megachurch-minister-busted-in-internet-sex-sting.amp

We were members of PBC, at that time... an SBC church. We knew Joe prior to being on staff at PBC. His arrest was a complete surprise.

I am thankful he was never responsible for kids (Minister for Married Adults) at PBC, I am thankful it was a sting, and no real person was harmed, in this incident. I am thankful he was caught. What is troubling is... at age 52, there were probably real victims in his past, and there were probably people who knew. And now...that is hopefully over.

Evil exists. Let's ALL work to eradicatethese types of abuse regardless of the Jersey worn by the perp, and regardless of the organizational affiliations of the victim. ALL potential victims should be protected... not just the ones in organizations we are members.
Redstone
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Amongst the many infuriating aspects of the Catholic scandals, beginning first of course with the abuse of persons, is also losing the moral authority to speak plainly about human sexuality. Insidious and clever of the demons.
And
Think about this: Catholic scandals are worse than what has been reported....and the media knows! They knew about McCarrick for years!
Why would the media shy away?
Homosexuality. That's why.
Redstone
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Catholics:
gay reporters are naming names, more and more.

Let us be honest with hierarchy - especially when solicited for donations.

New book: In the Closet of the Vatican (Martel, Whiteside)
pagerman @ work
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Ellis Wyatt said:

pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

It is terrible, but most of those SBC churches didn't try to hide or protect the perpetrator. They are largely in prison. In the case of the Catholic Church... the priests were shuffled around, relocated and mostly avoided criminal prosecution. In the recent Dallas Diocese disclosure... many of the identified were deceased, or their where-abouts were largely unknown.

Whatever sanctimonious spin helps you sleep at night.
Do you really not grasp the difference? "SBC leaders" are not employees of the SBC. They are employees or volunteers at individual churches, which do not answer to the SBC hierarchy in any meaningful way. Their bills are not paid for by the SBC or any individual association. As such, SBC leadership does not/did not move them around or hide them.

If you can't understand how that is dramatically different than what happened within the Catholic Church, you need some help.
This report is only a consolidation of police reports and arrests. It is not a comprehensive investigation of the inner workings of the SBC and its affiliated churches.
Quote:

Several past presidents and prominent Southern Baptist Convention leaders have been accused by victims of concealing or mishandling abuse complaints within their churches or seminaries, the newspapers reported.
Quote:

In 2008, a victim implored SBC leaders to track sexual predators, act against congregations that harbored or concealed abusers and establish sexual abuse prevention policies such as those adopted by other faiths, including the Roman Catholic Church. But the SBC Executive Committee rejected the proposals.
This report sheds zero light on any activity to conceal or cover up by the leadership, and was done by the media and not by any internal functions.

Yes the Catholic Church is obviously more hierarchical in nature and as such it was much easier to conceal the crimes of priests, but to rely on that notion and this cursory report in order to make yourself feel better with "at least it's not as bad as the catholics" is at best self-serving hopeful guessing. At worst it is ignoring the plank in your own eye to continue to point out the splinter (or in this case plank) in the other party's eye.

This is a good first step in determining the scope of the problem, but that's all it is. And some praise is due to the individual churches for frequently doing the right thing and involving law enforcement, something that was all too rare in the Catholic church. Going forward there needs to be concerted effort to establish the scope of the problem and deal directly with it.

If you can do that, then you can absolutely point at the superior behavior of the SBC vs the papists, because the Catholic Church is still refusing to honestly look at the problem and deal with it.
“I think since Trump doesn’t drink, lighting up a–holes on Twitter is his Cognac before bed.” - Dennis Miller
Boo Weekley
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BrownDeerAggie said:

I am a Southern Baptist pastor. Like post above, we mandate two teachers with children and youth. Require background checks of all teachers, volunteers who work with children, and pastoral staff. We also do annual training. I say throw any sexual predator in an SBC church in a hole and bury them. I suspect most of these cases are repeat offenders who took advantage of naive congregations or lazy folks who just don't want to bothered by extra effort in taking these precautions.
Agree. I believe, per the Bible, that shepherds of the flock are to be held to a different standard...whether it be pastors, teachers, elders or deacons. Even deviating from scripture is playing with fire in my book. Violating the young and most vulnerable? That should earn you the harshest of punishments.
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
Ellis Wyatt
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pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

This report is only a consolidation of police reports and arrests. It is not a comprehensive investigation of the inner workings of the SBC and its affiliated churches.
Quote:

Several past presidents and prominent Southern Baptist Convention leaders have been accused by victims of concealing or mishandling abuse complaints within their churches or seminaries, the newspapers reported.
Quote:

In 2008, a victim implored SBC leaders to track sexual predators, act against congregations that harbored or concealed abusers and establish sexual abuse prevention policies such as those adopted by other faiths, including the Roman Catholic Church. But the SBC Executive Committee rejected the proposals.
This report sheds zero light on any activity to conceal or cover up by the leadership, and was done by the media and not by any internal functions.

Yes the Catholic Church is obviously more hierarchical in nature and as such it was much easier to conceal the crimes of priests, but to rely on that notion and this cursory report in order to make yourself feel better with "at least it's not as bad as the catholics" is at best self-serving hopeful guessing. At worst it is ignoring the plank in your own eye to continue to point out the splinter (or in this case plank) in the other party's eye.

This is a good first step in determining the scope of the problem, but that's all it is. And some praise is due to the individual churches for frequently doing the right thing and involving law enforcement, something that was all too rare in the Catholic church. Going forward there needs to be concerted effort to establish the scope of the problem and deal directly with it.

If you can do that, then you can absolutely point at the superior behavior of the SBC vs the papists, because the Catholic Church is still refusing to honestly look at the problem and deal with it.
It's obvious you really don't understand how the SBC works. It's OK to be ignorant. Just go ahead and admit it.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
DallasAg 94
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Boo Weekley said:


Agree. I believe, per the Bible, that shepherds of the flock are to be held to a different standard...whether it be pastors, teachers, elders or deacons. Even deviating from scripture is playing with fire in my book. Violating the young and most vulnerable? That should earn you the harshest of punishments.
James 3:1
Quote:

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Because more than your own salvation and view of Christ is affected... you are responsible for every thing you speak into someone else who might be led astray by your teaching.

I've taught many year in an Adult class and have led many small groups. I open by telling them if they disagree with something I've said, call me out. Preferably in private, but whenever it suits them. I'd rather be wrong and embarrassed by them, and given a chance to correct it, than to wait for the final judgment.
DallasAg 94
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
I'm not going to even speculate. Schools and Gov officials are held to a different standard than Clergy, IMO.
insulator_king
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Religious /spiritual abuse is horrific because the vulnerability of the flock is so much greater.

This is exactly what Christ condemned in the Pharisees'/Sadducees'. Teachers of the law.

Millstones around their neck and thrown into the ocean is a good start.
TXK
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
Is this an argument that there weren't "that" many victims?
Ol Jock 99
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JD Greear (current SBC pres) statement:
https://jdgreear.com/blog/700-not-total-number-get-help/

Russell Moore (pres of Ethics Commission) statement:
https://www.russellmoore.com/2019/02/10/southern-baptists-and-the-scandal-of-church-sexual-abuse/
ArcticPenguin
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I started working in the church nursery when I was 12 yrs old. We always had two adults over the age of 18 in the room at all times even in the 80s

I don't think background checks got started until late 90s, but the opportunity to harm a child would have been extremely remote. This happened because of naviete and predators creating opportunity. It can happen in any community that isn't constantly vigilant
CanyonAg77
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TXK said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
Is this an argument that there weren't "that" many victims?
If one is discussing a problem, one should figure out the magnitude of the problem, and have a proportional response.

Obviously the ideal would be zero victims.

In any significantly large population of humans, that will never be achieved.
The Debt
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doubledog said:

380 Southern Baptist church leaders have been accused of sexual misconduct leaving more the 700 victims (since 1998).

https://goo.gl/gx9gfU



...and that's just at Baylor
The Debt
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TXK said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
Is this an argument that there weren't "that" many victims?

19/year for an organization of 40,000,000. If you random sampled 40mil Americans, you would probably see double that in abuse.
CanyonAg77
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The Debt said:

doubledog said:

380 Southern Baptist church leaders have been accused of sexual misconduct leaving more the 700 victims (since 1998).
...and that's just at Baylor
Funny, but Baylor disassociated from the SBC long time ago.
CanyonAg77
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The Debt said:

TXK said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
Is this an argument that there weren't "that" many victims?

19/year for an organization of 40,000,000. If you random sampled 40mil Americans, you would probably see double that in abuse.
http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

Link above claims that 1 in 5 girls and 1 on 20 boys is sexually abused by the time they hit 18. If 40 million in the group, would be easy to say that maybe 4 million are under 18, 2 million boys, 2 million girls. In any year then 1 in 90 girls abused, or over 22 thousand; and 1 in 360 boys or over 5500 boys abused.

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens

That link says that something over 57,000 cases of child sexual abuse are credibly reported each year.

Again, "Zero" would be a wonderful statistic. But having 0.03% of the reported cases involving an organization that 11% of Americans belong to is not a lot in the overall picture.
spence10
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Why do Catholics and Protestants hate each other so much? It's almost as if each side enjoys seeing the other crumble
Irish_Man
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Goes back What, 6 to 7 centuries ago.
DallasAg 94
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spence10 said:

Why do Catholics and Protestants hate each other so much? It's almost as if each side enjoys seeing the other crumble
Money. Power. Influence.

If a church loses 20% of it's income from tithe because people left your church, then you get pretty pissed about it.
Render
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spence10 said:

Why do Catholics and Protestants hate each other so much? It's almost as if each side enjoys seeing the other crumble

I think the families teach it, not the denominations. Growing up, whenever other denominations were brought up, they were always simply referred to as "our fellow Christian brothers and sisters". I was taken aback when I learned my schoolmates, who were Baptist and Pentacostal, had an irrational fear/hate of Catholics. They said their families had told them to feel that way. (Not saying all, just those specific people.)
ravingfans
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spence10 said:

Why do Catholics and Protestants hate each other so much? It's almost as if each side enjoys seeing the other crumble
I don't know anyone on either side that hates the other. I see lots of folks that don't understand the other religion, but many don't understand their own position either. As far as hating people of the other religion--I don't see that at all.

I have atheist friends that have a ton of anger toward either Catholics or Protestants, however.
pagerman @ work
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The Debt said:

TXK said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

380 people and 700 victims. Over 20 years. About 19 victims/year. About 1.8 victims per accuser.

There are 47,544 SBC affiliates.
Wonder what the numbers are for school teachers and children.
Is this an argument that there weren't "that" many victims?

19/year for an organization of 40,000,000. If you random sampled 40mil Americans, you would probably see double that in abuse.
These numbers are only of cases that have been dealt with via the legal system. It is not a full accounting by any means.
“I think since Trump doesn’t drink, lighting up a–holes on Twitter is his Cognac before bed.” - Dennis Miller
Ellis Wyatt
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pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

These numbers are only of cases that have been dealt with via the legal system. It is not a full accounting by any means.

Right, and the SBC has no authority to deal with any of them. They are individual church matters.
pagerman @ work
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Ellis Wyatt said:

pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

These numbers are only of cases that have been dealt with via the legal system. It is not a full accounting by any means.

Right, and the SBC has no authority to deal with any of them. They are individual church matters.
Terrific.

That has zero bearing on the numbers involved, beyond providing the cover of plausible deniability for those unwilling to deal with the issue.
“I think since Trump doesn’t drink, lighting up a–holes on Twitter is his Cognac before bed.” - Dennis Miller
CanyonAg77
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pagerman @ work said:

Ellis Wyatt said:

pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

These numbers are only of cases that have been dealt with via the legal system. It is not a full accounting by any means.

Right, and the SBC has no authority to deal with any of them. They are individual church matters.
Terrific.

That has zero bearing on the numbers involved, beyond providing the cover of plausible deniability for those unwilling to deal with the issue.
No, it's merely pointing out that this is a church by church issue, as the SBC does not appoint church leadership on the local level.
Ellis Wyatt
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pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

Terrific.

That has zero bearing on the numbers involved, beyond providing the cover of plausible deniability for those unwilling to deal with the issue.

It is precisely pointing out that "the issue" is not dealt with by an entity. It's a lot of singular issues dealt with by thousands of different entities.

The SBC has no authority over local church matters. They cannot close their eyes or hide corruption because it's not theirs to deal with.
Ellis Wyatt
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I can type more slowly if it would help.
pagerman @ work
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Ellis Wyatt said:

pagerman @ work said:

Quote:

Terrific.

That has zero bearing on the numbers involved, beyond providing the cover of plausible deniability for those unwilling to deal with the issue.

It is precisely pointing out that "the issue" is not dealt with by an entity. It's a lot of singular issues dealt with by thousands of different entities.

The SBC has no authority over local church matters. They cannot close their eyes or hide corruption because it's not theirs to deal with.
“I think since Trump doesn’t drink, lighting up a–holes on Twitter is his Cognac before bed.” - Dennis Miller
Redstone
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My uncle is a somewhat well known SBC pastor, and ...

by the governing rules of the church, they abide by the SBC. Or they can choose in a given year not to.

He's the "pope," because the deacons say so. This means power of hiring / firing, ect.

This is common. So the "authority" of the SBC extends as far as....the SBC organization. I fail to see how the SBC has much relevance in these terrible stories, although maybe I'm wrong.

Again, the Catholic problems are much, much, much worse.

The hierarchy itself is full of demonic influence, and a "lavender mafia" (yes a real and meaningful term) is and has been protective of its Satanic bee hive, for several decades, at the very highest levels - in rich countries, in the Holy See. McCarrick is a very revelatory key. The stables must be cleansed. Benedict tried, but the "wolves" - his term - have won, for now.



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