Sad story. Inspiring story. Tal Bachman and his wifes escape from Mormonism

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El Sid
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2:39p, 5/1/06
quote:
Just then, Tracy came into the computer room where I was sitting...and as I've mentioned on here before, I can't for the life of me remember what was said. I remember the image of her coming in and sitting on the little love seat like I was watching it through a slightly distorted lens, but I can't remember what I said really. And neither can she. I think it might have just been something like, "Tracy...it isn't true...he made it up...", but that memory is so dim, that I don't know now if I'm remembering something, or my imagination has just filled in the blank for me. So, I don't know.

But I seem to remember clearly that it was a short conversation. I remember afterwards, when I came out of the room, she said, "I know how serious you've always been about the church, and I know you wouldn't make something like this up or say anything like that unless you felt absolutely certain". She also said at some point, "With something like this, I want to do my own research though". I said, "Yes, please, please read - if you can think of any way I might be mistaken on this, please tell me, all I want to know is the truth". It will be hard for lurkers to believe this, but I had no desire for the church to be a fraud. Discovering it was, as I believed I had, was the worst, scariest, saddest moment of my entire life.
More:
The Day My Wife Listened To Me About The Church
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_talbachman_section2.html#pub_-722871882

Tal Bachman is an internationally recognized singer-songwriter from Vancouver, Canada. He is also the son of rock legend Randy Bachman (The Guess Who, BTO).

I have learned that he is a fine writer - and a courageous man.
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ibmagg
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3:19p, 5/1/06
His father was even a better man. Thosands of people a year "escape" from Methodism, Catholism, evangelism, Lutheranism, Church of Christ, Baptists, etc. to the LDS Church or even others. There is supposed to be some great liberating message here. Sounds like they are miserable. Satan can deceive is you let him -it sure happended to Joseph's followers which, when they came back into the Church, they freely admitted. You can guess who blinded the followers of Jesus and they continuosly peeled off from him, even though they saw him perform miracles and felt his spirit. I still can't figure out how the Israelites could have complained so much and started worshipping idols after the Red Sea was parted by Moses. Can you imagine the stories they could have written under the heading "So & So escapes Moses, the Magician and His False Religion"? It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the years. We only know the part of their lives they care to disclose.

[This message has been edited by ibmagg (edited 5/1/2006 2:34p).]
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Guadaloop474
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9:55p, 5/1/06
As long as ibmag doesn't eat any placentas with Tom Cruise, he is alright in my book...
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El Sid
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9:37a, 5/2/06
ibmagg:

It has been interesting for me to observe the explosion of former Mormon websites on the Internet.

One of the most well known is called, "Recovery from Mormonism." Tal Bachman wrote this about why such sites exist:
quote:
For people from all walks of life, who for various reasons have come to believe that they were wrong about everything that was most important to them in life, to be able to make sense of how they could have been so wrong, learn how to replace anguish with peace, and to create a new life of meaning, joy, and purpose.
I just ran some quick Yahoo! searches and did not find sites devoted to "Recovery from Methodism" or "Recovery from Lutheranism" or "Recovery from Baptism".

I think the main reason there are so many "recovery" and "escape" web sites is that the LDS church is so demonstrably false, so patently fraudulent, that former members are just compelled to shout to the world what they have learned.

More often than not, I read that when it finally "clicks" for former members, they look back aghast that they did not see it before. The overwhelming weight and preponderance the evidence points to Joseph Smith making it up. It is as plain as the noses on their faces.

Yet, the social and community bonds of the church are so strong, it is a difficult and extraordinarily brave thing for members to stand up for truth and leave.

Sadly, from what I can tell, many become disillusioned altogether with religion. The lucky ones find themselves called by God into a Biblically based Christian church, and there they find the peace of the Holy Spirit.

ibmagg, I have a question for you: If the LDS church is not what it claims to be, would you want to know about it? ( Is that a tough question to answer honestly? For some, it is. )

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 5/2/2006 9:24a).]
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ibmagg
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12:58p, 5/2/06
Of couse. I think I have read just about every anti-Mormon book going and have watched 3 films including the God Makers. From out and out lies, half truths and conclusions based on partial truths that are so far off the mark, that if that was our "real" theology, we should be committed, I have seen nothing that would even began to prove the Gospel false. My wife and I watched one "religious heirling" who for "love offerings" was going around to different congregations to expose what the Mormons "really believed". He quoted Bruce McConkie from his book "Mormon Doctrine" but this jerk not only misquoted from the book, but would skip around and over complete paragraphs, then give his interpretation as to what Bruce McCokie really meant. It was so far off, we looked at each other, then rewound the tape and went down page by page from where he had quoted. That is when we discovered his intentional duplicity. I have not one bit of problem with people who explain what we really believe but so many "professionals" love to take things out of context and then let it stand on it own. You watch the liberals today constantly refer to "separation of Church and state" but this phrase is no where to be found in the Constitution or in any founding document. The phrase was lifted out of a letter fom Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists who had heard a rumor that the Congregational Church was going to be made the national church of America. In addition they didn't like the wording in the bill of rights that they felt could let one assume that freedom of religion was a "government" granted right and "not an "inalienable" right from Diety. Thomas Jefferson's letter was an attempt to put their mind at ease as he explained that the Government would never interfere with religious freedom or activites because there was a "wall of separation between church and state". So this phrase, lifted out of context and with no reference to the purpose of the letter or what generated it to be written, is used by those who have attempted to take us away from oor Judeo-Christian heritage. It is the same with what I have seen with all the anti-Mormon works. But this man was making a good living off of these poor ignorant people who did not know any better.

Now I have a question for you. If the LDS Church was what it claimed to be would you want to know? And how would you go about finding out?

I find it amusing when reading some of the posts that these people's investigation into the Church seems the equivalent of a football player trying to decide between tu, O.U. and A&M, but asking asking the coaches from tu and Ou, "what about A&M" and making their buying decision based on that. If by some chance they actually spend anytime with the A&M coaches, they can still never bring themselves to visit the campus and spend any real quality time.
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Hank Hill
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1:37a, 5/3/06
Wow they escape Mormonism, is that supposed to be hard?

If one desires to escape Mormonism, stop coming to church, and ask your bishop to remove your name from the records of the church and you've escaped.

No offense but this is stupid, these people are playing you Sid and you eat it up like a Jerry Springer episode. Escaping the LDS faith is as easy as escaping English 101 your freshmen year. If you don't want to be there no one is going to come after you.

Two things about our church that you don't seem to understand

1. We don't have a paid ministry no ones salary is dependent upon you coming to church.

2. We have high standards that most people can't live by. We understand if you can't handle it, most people can't.

BTW Sid, maybe no one writes a website about escaping Protestantism because there is no commitment required to being a protestant. One could become a Protestant by simply showing up one day, they can leave the church by simply showing up at another church another day.

Our church requires a lot out of its members and out of its youth. No other church even comes close in that regard. My guess is their true escape is that they probably get paid to tell people like you about how they left and of course you eat it up. From what I understand every time a LDS person joins another church they are usually asked to do this kind of thing. I think it is the Protestant way of trying to scare their meal ticket into staying away from the LDS faith.

[This message has been edited by Hank Hill (edited 5/3/2006 12:48a).]
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RAB91
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1:50a, 5/3/06
I can't speak to how hard it is to have your name removed. However, if you live in Utah or other predominantly mormon areas, leaving the church impacts all parts of your life. In particular, it can be a huge negative in your professional life when you leave the church. I know people who have had sales jobs in Utah, and the first question that gets asked of them is 'what ward are you in?' (or whatever the proper way of asking what mormon church you attend). If the answer was 'they are not mormon', the sales call was pretty much over at that point.

[This message has been edited by RAB91 (edited 5/3/2006 1:06a).]
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Hank Hill
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2:07a, 5/3/06
I can tell you from experience that being a Mormon in Alabama, Mississippi, or South Carolina is not exactly a free ticket to success. Jus look at the thread about Mit Romney, we got conservative right wing that would rather vote for the Devil than a Mormon.

As far as leaving the church culturally, Utah is now less than 50% Mormon, and there are a great many who claim to be Mormon but have never seen the iside of a meeting house.

It has been said that people generally have 3 places of comfort in thier lives and they seldom venture outside of those places.

1. Home
2. work
3. other, could be a bar, coffee house, church, you name it.

Mormon's generally have the same 3 and seldom venture out of it.

1. home
2. work
3. church

So what do you expect when someone leaves the church, we are supposed to jump for joy and start meeting him at the coffee house (oops we don't drink coffee, maybe go to the bar, (oops we dont go to bars either).

You get the idea, its not about us shunning that person, its that the commonality shared is now broken. I would love to go to the gym and meet lots of new people, heck I would love to have time to go to the gym.

You get the idea.
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Hank Hill
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2:15a, 5/3/06
BTW Rab91,

To answer your question about having your name removed from the records of the church.

I've handled this responsibility many times before.

In the case of excommunication it is done automatically. The person has no say in the matter.

In the case of that person just wanting to leave the church, all they need to do is mail a letter to the local bishop asking to have their name removed from the records. Sometimes it happens by having home or visiting teachers deliver the letter.

The third way is if that person just decides to join another church, then their name is automatically removed as well.
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Aggie_Fanatic
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3:39a, 5/3/06
AG
quote:
The third way is if that person just decides to join another church, then their name is automatically removed as well.


Unless this has changed recently this is not true. You still have to inform the bishop or another authority you wish to be removed. I have not seen a case where you are removed just for joining another church. I am not saying it has not happened. But in the cases I have seen the persons still had to make their wishes known.
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ibmagg
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10:25a, 5/3/06
To maybe help those understand what those who might be considered "active" members of the Church go through when they leave the Church might find it most revealing what the Prophet Joseph said about this matter. This happened from the beginning of the restoration and those that became apostate became (forwhat ever reason) some of the most bitter persecutors of the saints.

A brother Isaac Behunnin and Daniel tyler called on Joseph after he had returned to Nauvoo from prson in Missouri. Joseph told them about false brethern who had borne false witness against him and the Church and how some of them had returned weeeping and expressing a willingness that the Lord remove them by DEATH IF that would remove the stain they had brought uponthemselves by swearing falsely from the threatened if they said aught in the Prophet's favor.

When the Prophet had ended telling how he had been treated, Brother Behunnin remarked, "If I should leave this Church, I would not do as those men have done. I would go to some remote place where Mormonism had never been heard of, and no one would ever learn that I knew anything about it."

Joseph immediately replied: "Brother Behunnin, you don't know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on NEUTRAL ground. When the Gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose eith or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you LEFT the neutral ground, and you can NEVER get back on it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the INSTIGATION of the evil one and you will follow his dictation and be his servant."

One only has to look at Oliver Cowdrey's life before he came back to the Church, humbled to the very dust, to know that what he said is true. Those who leave the Church are never mistreated or persecuted by the members, who almost always show an outward expression of love and forbearance with the intent to help the individual discover their mistake. They on the other hand feel isolated, but it is because they have done it to themselves.
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El Sid
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11:35a, 5/3/06
quote:
We have high standards that most people can't live by. We understand if you can't handle it, most people can't.
What a crock!!!

This is the line you get every time. "Well, obviously that former member couldn't handle it. I wonder what sin he wants to commit?"

Bullhockey!

Tal Bachman did not quit because of any desire to sin or to escape Mormon authority. He quit because he studied and learned the church was not what it claimed to be. He could not continue on in support of a fraud - no matter how important it had been in his life.
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ibmagg
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12:36p, 5/3/06
The reason you know this how? Oh, because that is what he claims. What about all those who leave, come back and ask to be rebaptised and explain they were deceived?
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El Sid
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12:44p, 5/3/06
quote:
What about all those who leave, come back and ask to be rebaptised and explain they were deceived?
What about all the "gentiles" who leave their church for Mormonism, learn more about Mormon claims and beliefs, and then return to protestantism saying they were "deceived." What does that prove?

Evaluate the LDS church based on its claims. It claims, for example, that the Book of Abraham was interpreted from an Egyptian papyrus. This has been conclusively proved to be a false claim.

Use your head in other words.
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Hank Hill
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3:59p, 5/3/06
Actually El Sid, it has been statistically proven that when Protestants leave their church and become LDS they almost never go back. Less than 7% will leave the LDS church for another.

It is far more likely for a person raised LDS to leave the church than for a former protestant.

BTW I've dealt with many many people who have left the LDS faith and the far majority have done so for lifestyle changes than any doctrine issue. Not saying it doesn't happen but I would say that in my 20+ years of church service less that maybe 5% left because of doctrine issues.

One of the persons I know who said he left the church for doctrine issues finally came out as Gay. So I guess he did have a doctrine issue.
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El Sid
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4:01p, 5/3/06
This poll indicates that the largest number leave because they learn that the BoM is not true and that JS was no prophet.

http://www.misterpoll.com/results.mpl?id=509654593

This poll is at least as accurate as your own personal experience, wouldn't you agree?
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ibmagg
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4:12p, 5/3/06
And how did they learn this? Those who were some of Joseph's close followers had no doubt that he had been a prophet, but he had become a "fallen" prophet. I wonder what rationale the Jews used when they became convinced that Mose was no longer a valid prophet or had lost his power. How did they "learn" this?
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Hank Hill
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4:43p, 5/3/06
I take it statistical research isn't a strong point with you or those who created this poll.

Can you say completely bias and because there is no way to view the imperial data it is easily dismissable.

384 people voted in this poll and we excommunicate more people than that in a single day.
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TxAgKuwait
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10:10a, 5/4/06
AG
Just so you know, I got in touch with Tal and he was having trouble getting a TexAgs registration.

He might post something before long or he may just send me something via e mail to post on his behalf.

At any rate I'm sure he'd be okay if I extended his best regards.
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El Sid
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10:16a, 5/4/06
TxAgKuwait, outstanding!
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Hank Hill
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6:47a, 5/5/06
If you can, see if you can get ahold of Ed Decker. Now that is an anti-mormon I would love to talk with.

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tbachman
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10:40p, 5/6/06
Hi

I hope it's okay for me to join in. I found out something I'd written was being discussed on here so I thought I might.

I wish to say, in defense of IBMagg and Hank Hill, that I know exactly where they are coming from in their comments about the (loathsome and disingenuous) Ed Decker. His material is awful, and I have never heard of a single person ever leaving Mormonism because of it. I certainly can't fathom why anyone would, so full of distortions is it. Far more have left, paradoxically (though as it turns out, for good reasons), after reading through Mormon apologetic material itself. But that is another topic.

By the way, it wasn't I who used the term "escape" from Mormonism. All you have to do to leave Mormonism, strictly speaking, is resign membership and stop attending.

Yet, in other ways, there is so much more to it than that...but that too is a topic for another post.

Adios,

Tal

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ibmagg
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10:47p, 5/6/06
Tal, since you and your wife are reading, get the book "They knew the Prophet" by Hyrum L. Helen mae Andrus. These are some of the people who knew Joseph the best and experienced amazing things with him.
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El Sid
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10:56p, 5/6/06
Holy cow!

Welcome aboard, Tal!

Cheers.
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Hank Hill
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8:55a, 5/7/06
tbachman wrote:
quote:
Hi

I hope it's okay for me to join in. I found out something I'd written was being discussed on here so I thought I might.

I wish to say, in defense of IBMagg and Hank Hill, that I know exactly where they are coming from in their comments about the (loathsome and disingenuous) Ed Decker. His material is awful, and I have never heard of a single person ever leaving Mormonism because of it. I certainly can't fathom why anyone would, so full of distortions is it. Far more have left, paradoxically (though as it turns out, for good reasons), after reading through Mormon apologetic material itself. But that is another topic.

By the way, it wasn't I who used the term "escape" from Mormonism. All you have to do to leave Mormonism, strictly speaking, is resign membership and stop attending.

Yet, in other ways, there is so much more to it than that...but that too is a topic for another post.

Adios,

Tal


I'd like to compare notes, you think it's hard to break ties with the LDS faith try being Italian and breaking ties with the Catholic Church. I still have family in Italy that can't understand my family's motivation for leaving Catholicism.

And yes I do understand what Tal is talking about. The LDS church is a missionary church and I'm willing to bet that every LDS person he ever had a relationship with now tries to reconvert him. It can make it hard to maintain a progressive relationship when you feel your decision is not respected.
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tbachman
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3:11p, 5/7/06
Hi IBMagg

I first read "They Knew The Prophet" as a young teenager, years ago. I thought it was the greatest book I had ever read. Since then I have read it many times, and can still quote from it. I used it for talk references, lesson material (I was for a long time an EQ instructor and GD instructor), etc.

I was saddened to find out in the early nineties that it had gone out of print, and so paid a local copy place to make two copies of the old edition I had, to loan out to friends. I was then thrilled when Deseret Books (I think it was) re-issued the book a few years ago.

I understand very well how reading that book would leave no doubt in the mind of a member that Joseph Smith was a man of great charm, magnanimity, rectitude, and power.
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Hank Hill
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6:21p, 5/7/06
tbachman wrote:

quote:
Hi IBMagg

I first read "They Knew The Prophet" as a young teenager, years ago. I thought it was the greatest book I had ever read. Since then I have read it many times, and can still quote from it. I used it for talk references, lesson material (I was for a long time an EQ instructor and GD instructor), etc.

I was saddened to find out in the early nineties that it had gone out of print, and so paid a local copy place to make two copies of the old edition I had, to loan out to friends. I was then thrilled when Deseret Books (I think it was) re-issued the book a few years ago.

I understand very well how reading that book would leave no doubt in the mind of a member that Joseph Smith was a man of great charm, magnanimity, rectitude, and power.


I have not read this book, I have read many other works including those of Truman Madsen.

Many people outside the Church would claim that Joseph Smith was a cult of personality. I have no doubts that Joseph was an amazing person but from what I know of him he was very blunt and tended to bring out both the best and worst in people. He never carried himself like one would think a Prophet would. He liked playing with his kids and games of athletics like stick pulling and wrestling. And these are the accounts of those who loved him.

Fact is it was his brother Hyrum that acted more like a Prophet than Joseph did.

IMO there had to be another reason for people to follow him besides his personality.

I must say that I am grateful for the fact that members were commanded to keep a Journal because these writings have become a witness and testament to the church and Joseph.
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tbachman
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6:33p, 5/7/06
Hank

Do you mind me asking how old you are?
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Hank Hill
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6:58p, 5/7/06
Not at all, I'm 38. I joined the church with my family at age 12. My family converted from Catholicism, most of my extended family still is very strong in the Catholic church on my mother's side, my father's side has no religion unless you count the church of the Honky Tonk.

I served a 2 year mission in South Carolina and was married in the Dallas temple in 1990.

[This message has been edited by Hank Hill (edited 5/7/2006 6:00p).]
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tbachman
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7:03p, 5/7/06
Hank

How many kids do you have?
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Hank Hill
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7:19p, 5/7/06
I have three children.
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Hank Hill
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8:20p, 5/7/06
tbachman,
I have a few questions for you.

Did you ever serve a mission?

Did you ever have a testimony of the church?

How are your family relationships since leaving the church?
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El Sid
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9:43p, 5/7/06
I fear Tal, as a new poster, may have a posting limit.

He will obviously be able to answer your questions much better than I can, but I can at least say that yes, he served a mission.

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tbachman
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10:25p, 5/7/06
Hi Hank

1.) I served a two year mission in Argentina during which I was involved in many hundreds of convert baptisms, including finding, teaching, and baptizing entire villages.

2.) Of course I had a testimony. That's why I risked my life braving death threats in Argentina (I was there when Elders Ball and Wilson, who you've probably never heard of, were assassinated just north of us in Bolivia by Maoist guerrillas), why I risked my life baptizing in crocodile-frequented swamps, why I risked my life by living for weeks at a time in the middle of nowhere surrounded by lethal snakes, sleeping in a tree at night, just to get to remote aboriginals...why I now have eight children, why I spent many thousands of dollars amassing a huge gospel library, why I talked about the church in every interview in which it came up all over the world, why I did firesides for the church, why I was happy to have multiple callings on occasion, etc.

3.) My family relationships are closer than ever, although the discovery that we were wrong about everything that was most important to us, really threw my wife and I for a loop. We felt shellshocked. Fortunately though now, we are best of friends.

I have a serious question for you, Hank. Please think it over carefully and answer me honestly.

I know you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Joseph Smith always told the truth about his sacred experiences, that the witnesses were absolutely reliable, and that Mormonism is the only true religion in the history of the world, so true that Jesus himself was the first Mormon and started the Mormon church 2000 years ago in Palestine.

And I know you probably feel perfectly content with the church...you've probably noticed a little local church problem here or there, but overall, I'm sure you feel that for whatever foibles church members or even prophets might have had, that you feel nothing but gratitude for your membership in the church. I'm sure you feel that it is the glue which helps hold your family together; that it is the only thing out there which really seems to make sense, and that it has brought you incalculable amounts of blessings. I am further sure you have had incredibly riveting spiritual experiences, which have let you know that you really do belong to the only true religion in the world.

Am I right?

If so, here is my question.

If, by some terrible, unfathomable chance, it was the case that Joseph did NOT tell the truth about his experiences, and that there was some hitherto uncontemplated by you explanation for your conviction that Mormonism is true, and that whatever else it may be, the church Joseph founded was NOT what it claimed to be -

given all the good and joy you feel you have found in the church -

why would you EVER want to find that out?

I am dead serious, Hank. Why? IBMagg is welcome to answer too, if he comes back on.

Why?

Why, when your wife will cry herself to sleep for nights on end?

Why, when you will lose many of your friends?

Why, when it will plunge you into the greatest despair, leaving you seeing stars, feeling hurt and betrayed and even embarrassed, sending you from thinking you know nearly everything of importance in the universe, to knowing virtually nothing?

Why, when members using aliases on bulletin boards will feel no compunction about casting aspersions on your character, and insinuating all kinds of dark motives for the "real" reason you "left"?

Why, when it might strain relations with family members who, unlike you, don't wish to know what you know?

All those beautiful visions of missions and baptisms...all gone now...

Losing face in front of others...having to admit to non-member friends they were right all along, and you were wrong...

Why, Hank and IBMagg, given all this, would you EVER want to find out that a talented but desperate Joseph, did not tell the truth?

Why, in this admittedly nearly unfathomable case, would you not just take the easy way, and stay believing just what you believe now?

I answered your questions directly. Please answer mine.

[This message has been edited by tbachman (edited 5/7/2006 9:27p).]

[This message has been edited by tbachman (edited 5/7/2006 9:30p).]
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ibmagg
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2:43a, 5/8/06
tbachman -I just read your post. First the last thing "I" ever wanted to do was join the Mormon Church. I was making more money and having more "fun" than I could handle. None of the missionaries, or the greatest sales force in the world, of which I was a very successful part, could have ever talked me into believing or accepting that Joseph Smith was the instrument to bring about the Restoration but the Holy Ghost could. I could not deny that witness. It totally changed my disposition to do evil. I have witnessed the priesthood in action. I have seen miracles in the case of my daughter and in my own life. Things that I can not deny!

If Joseph knew he was preaching a lie, you could not have drug back across the Mississippi to Carthage. He was free and clear. In Joseph's day there were those who were decieved by the adversary, left and then came back, humbled to the dust. The "talented " Joseph was beyond that description to get eleven other good men to conspire with him, kick out 6 and never have them spill their guts against him. I could go on and on. As the joke goes, if the Church was not true the missionaries would have killed it off a long time ago. You personally can "know" nothing about Joseph unless you were there; the holy Ghost reveals it to you or the devil deceives you into believing something else. There is no "man produced" work that can do it. If there were, it would have happened long before now, for goodness knows so many have tried. I suggest that YOU read "Voices from the Dust". It is unlike any any other book produced by an LDS author. Getting late so I will talk to you later. And while you are at it read "Mafia to Mormon". Most unbelievable book of its kind that I have ever read. I am 68 years old and have been a member 38 years. I have seen and experienced much and I have seen some latter-day 'aints also.

Amazingly enough, Mario Facione's first contact with the Church as a memeber of the Detroit Mob was with an apostate Mormon who tried to scam him out of $50,000. It is unreal that he was ever able to get past that. Anyway, remember, many are called, but few are chosen --and we do the choosing!
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