Are the periods of time in Revelation 20 literal?

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codker92
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REVELATION 20

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that she might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The events in Revelation 20:1-6 take place at the same period, which is referred to as a thousand years.

A survey of scripture reveals the term a thousand years is used elsewhere to denote a sort of eternal time.

This reference to a thousand years in Revelation 20 must be figurative because:

(1) Revelation consistently uses numbers figuratively; 5:11; 7:4-9; 9:16; 14:1; 21:16 which themselves are used in conjunction with figurative language ("chain","abyss", "dragon", "serpent", "locked", "sealed, "beast".
(2) Revelation especially, is a book with tons of allusions to the OT and figurative language riffing from the OT. See Revelation 1:1
(3) The figurative use of one thousand in the OT: figurative non-temporal: Deut: 1:10-11; 32:30; Josh. 23:10; Job 9:3; 32:23; Pss 50:10;68:17; Song Sol. 4:4;Ps. 84:10; Eccl. 6:6; especially 1 Chron 16:15-17 = Ps. 105:8-10 where God's "covenant forever" and "everlasting covenant" are equated with "the word which He commanded to a thousand generations" AND
(4) the use in Jewish writing and Early Christianity of "a thousand years" : as a figurative symbol for the eternal blessing of the redeemed: (2Pe 3.:8; Jubilees 13:27-30; 2 Enoch 25:33: Barnabas 15; Testament of Isaac 6-8)

In light of these examples the millennium should probably be taken figurately. Probably as a general reference to a long period of time as is Psalm 90:4: For a thousand years in They sight are like yesterday when it passes by.


lobopride
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Almost everything you see in Revelation is symbolic. There isn't strictly speaking a dragon or a beast. Strictly speaking the Millennium is not 1000 years. The number 7 represents completion or perfection. So when you read about the seven spirits before the throne in Revelation 1:4 it just means the perfect spirit which is the Holy Spirit. I am definitely not an expert but I have been reading some interesting books on the topic.
dermdoc
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lobopride said:

Almost everything you see in Revelation is symbolic. There isn't strictly speaking a dragon or a beast. Strictly speaking the Millennium is not 1000 years. The number 7 represents completion or perfection. So when you read about the seven spirits before the throne in Revelation 1:4 it just means the perfect spirit which is the Holy Spirit. I am definitely not an expert but I have been reading some interesting books on the topic.
Agree.

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.

A lot of these folks pick and choose what parts are "literal" and what parts are "symbolic" to fit their end time views.
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Jabin
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Agree.

Quote:

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.
Like that some number means perfection or that 1000 years is symbolic.

We just don't know.

I suspect that the main purpose of prophecy like Revelation is not to predict the future, but for confirmation of events as they occur. But then again, I don't know either which is why I said "I suspect".
lobopride
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Jabin said:

Agree.

Quote:

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.
Like that some number means perfection or that 1000 years is symbolic.

We just don't know.

I suspect that the main purpose of prophecy like Revelation is not to predict the future, but for confirmation of events as they occur. But then again, I don't know either which is why I said "I suspect".
I believe we can know how John expects us to read Revelation. He tells us in the prologue. "to show" us. You show with pictures and symbols.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Jabin
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lobopride said:

Jabin said:

Agree.

Quote:

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.
Like that some number means perfection or that 1000 years is symbolic.

We just don't know.

I suspect that the main purpose of prophecy like Revelation is not to predict the future, but for confirmation of events as they occur. But then again, I don't know either which is why I said "I suspect".
I believe we can know how John expects us to read Revelation. He tells us in the prologue. "to show" us. You show with pictures and symbols.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Although I agree that Revelation is most likely largely symbolic, that conclusion is not certain.

The word "show" doesn't imply symbolism at all. You'd be pretty upset if my offer to "show" you that I have the money I promised, or directions to a specific spot, was meant to be merely symbolic.
lobopride
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I thought this was a good summary of G.K Beale's beliefs.

Quote:

G.K. Beale's commentary on Revelation, which is probably the best commentary on Revelation ever written in the entire history of the church, has a very interesting (and convincing) take on Revelation 1:1, and the use of the Greek word "semaino." Beale notices that in BAGD (Beale's commentary came out before the third edition of BDAG), the definition is more generally "make known, report, communicate" without specifying the precise nature of that communication (Beale, 50). This is a caution on what follows. Beale's argument for "semaino" depends on the LXX translation of Daniel 2 as being in the background to Revelation 1:1.

In Daniel 2, "semaino" refers to something more specific: revelation by means of signs and symbols, or pictorial revelation. It is symbolic communication. Daniel 2:45 LXX demonstrates this by connecting "semaino" to the signs seen by the prophet. Beale argues that, although the more general term "make known" is certainly part of the semantic range of the word, "its more concrete and at least equally common sense is 'show by a sign'" (p. 51). It is very important at this point to note that all three uses of the verb in John's Gospel have to do with pictorial representation of Jesus' death and resurrection (12:33, 18:32, 21:19). The cognate noun "semeion" refers to signs and symbols. John picked "semaino" in Revelation 1:1 over the common and more general term "gnorizo" on purpose, according to Beale. He argues that "the allusion to Dan. 2:28-30, 45 indicates that a symbolic vision and its interpretation is going to be part of the warp and woof of the means of communication throughout Revelation" (p. 51).
The implications of this for the interpretation of Revelation are fairly immense: "[A] number of authors of both popular and scholarly commentaries contend that one should interpret literally except where one is forced to interpret symbolically by clear indications of context. But the results of the analysis above of 1:1 indicate that this rule should be turned on its head" (p. 52). He acknowledges that not all parts of Revelation are going to be symbolic or metaphorical. However, "Where there is lack of clarity about whether something is symbolic, the scales of judgment should be tilted in the direction of a nonliteral analysis" (p. 52).

At this point, a lot of people might get really, really nervous. Does this approach mean that I can make the symbols mean anything I want? Absolutely not. Symbols do not communicate anything if they communicate everything. Even words themselves can have a symbolic meaning. If I start off a sentence by saying, "Four score and seven years ago," a literate person will know exactly what I am referring to. They will not be expecting me to go off on a history lecture about World War II. The fact is that the symbolic imagery of Revelation has its roots in the Old Testament. So, although we should be interpreting Revelation in a way that recognizes its inherent symbolism, we should also recognize that such symbolism has a built-in control called "the rest of the Bible." John always operates in the symbolic world of the Bible. Furthermore, Revelation ties all the threads of the Bible together, and so we should expect the rest of the Bible to be pointing the way forward to Revelation.
https://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/revelation-11-and-the-interpretation-of-revelation/
bigcat22
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It was written using apocalyptic imagery, which its audience (the 7 churches) would have understood.

dermdoc
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Thanks for that link. I am going to read it.
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TresPuertas
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bigcat22 said:

It was written using apocalyptic imagery, which its audience (the 7 churches) would have understood.




one of the more interesting conversations i had on the subject was with a very smart and faithful man who said if Revelation was a vision it would likely be someone seeing into the future. if that was the case John would likely use his own ways of describing what he saw. so when he talks about locusts it could very easily be his way of describing helicopters, and so on.
Win At Life
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There are many symbolic patterns throughout scripture that point to real-world events, so there is, indeed, a blend of symbolic and literal (that is, literal real earthly events). One can start from the very beginning 7-days of creation with a day as a 1000 years. The first "day" of man or first 1000 year period is Adam to Noah. Noah initiates the 2nd day of man. Abraham was born 1948 years after Adam and is the bridge between the days of "man" and the days of Israel. The first day of Israel (3rd day total), goes up to David. David is the transition to the 4th day.

Yeshua came right at the end of the 4th day and initiated days 5 and 6. Days 5 and 6 are the "last days" before the Sabbath rest of the earth (the Millennial Kingdom). These last two days we've been in are the 2 days for Messiah. I believe these will be "long" days like the long summer days between the Spring Feast and the Fall feasts (that's another pattern of 7 as well, BTW), so I'm not expecting anything to happen around 2030-2033.

But I am predicting you will start to hear more about "Jesus' 2nd coming" as 2030-33 approaches that will exceed the hysteria around 1988 and 1999, IMO. You just haven't heard much about it yet, because it's too far away for people to scare you enough to make money off of it. But you will see that happen as the year 2030 approaches. Bookmark this post for then.
codker92
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dermdoc said:

lobopride said:

Almost everything you see in Revelation is symbolic. There isn't strictly speaking a dragon or a beast. Strictly speaking the Millennium is not 1000 years. The number 7 represents completion or perfection. So when you read about the seven spirits before the throne in Revelation 1:4 it just means the perfect spirit which is the Holy Spirit. I am definitely not an expert but I have been reading some interesting books on the topic.
Agree.

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.

A lot of these folks pick and choose what parts are "literal" and what parts are "symbolic" to fit their end time views.

Do you believe scripture is sufficient to teach man the things God wants them to know. Obviously a man cannot know everything. But can man know something? If scripture does not have a meaning, is it really useful for anything then?

It appears to me that God likes to communicate with symbolism to hide his plan from the enemy.
codker92
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Jabin said:

Agree.

Quote:

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.
Like that some number means perfection or that 1000 years is symbolic.

We just don't know.

I suspect that the main purpose of prophecy like Revelation is not to predict the future, but for confirmation of events as they occur. But then again, I don't know either which is why I said "I suspect".

Do you believe anyone on earth knows? Is scripture really relevant anymore?
codker92
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bigcat22 said:

It was written using apocalyptic imagery, which its audience (the 7 churches) would have understood.


Bingo. The Book of Revelation was not written to us today, but is was written for us. It was written to the Churches (7 meaning the complete church, not necessarily the number seven) who are the Righteous Remnant.
codker92
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Jabin said:

lobopride said:

Jabin said:

Agree.

Quote:

Whenever a "scholar" says they definitely know exactly what Revelation means, I stop listening.
Like that some number means perfection or that 1000 years is symbolic.

We just don't know.

I suspect that the main purpose of prophecy like Revelation is not to predict the future, but for confirmation of events as they occur. But then again, I don't know either which is why I said "I suspect".
I believe we can know how John expects us to read Revelation. He tells us in the prologue. "to show" us. You show with pictures and symbols.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
Although I agree that Revelation is most likely largely symbolic, that conclusion is not certain.

The word "show" doesn't imply symbolism at all. You'd be pretty upset if my offer to "show" you that I have the money I promised, or directions to a specific spot, was meant to be merely symbolic.

How can you be certain of your conclusion?
nortex97
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John of Patmos was high as a kite when he wrote it.

I can't be convinced otherwise. The Pink Floyd of biblical writers.
lobopride
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Read Revelation 1:1-3. God's purpose for the book is so we can know. It isn't super ambiguous. It is a guide for living in today's world.
codker92
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nortex97 said:

John of Patmos was high as a kite when he wrote it.

I can't be convinced otherwise. The Pink Floyd of biblical writers.


Now I believe this is true. But in a literal sense. John was taken high up above the earth into the heavenly realm.
Sapper Redux
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But only this one. The Apocalypse of Peter wasn't. Right?
Zobel
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Cmon guys, don't you remember the perspicuity of scripture? It can be read and understood by anyone.
Martin Q. Blank
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lobopride said:

Almost everything you see in Revelation is symbolic. There isn't strictly speaking a dragon or a beast. Strictly speaking the Millennium is not 1000 years. The number 7 represents completion or perfection. So when you read about the seven spirits before the throne in Revelation 1:4 it just means the perfect spirit which is the Holy Spirit. I am definitely not an expert but I have been reading some interesting books on the topic.
Just to clarify, everything in Revelation is literal using several literary devices such as symbols and metaphors. The dragon and beast are real even though they may not appear as what we generally conceive a dragon or beast to look like.

To the OP, the timing in Revelation is often symbolic and not even in order. Like all prophecies, it is a vision that is clouded in mystery. It's meant to give encouragement to the faithful and fear to those who don't believe.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

Cmon guys, don't you remember the perspicuity of scripture? It can be read and understood by anyone.
John clearly says only the one who has understanding can calculate the number of the beast. Not anyone.
nortex97
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Zobel said:

Cmon guys, don't you remember the perspicuity of scripture? It can be read and understood by anyone.
John clearly says only the one who has understanding can calculate the number of the beast. Not anyone.
Yeah, and Led Zeppelin has said they won't divulge the meaning of their signs until later too. Wait, it all ties together with Jimmy Page!

Quote:

Page's symbol presents the most mystery out of all the band members. His symbol is known as the Zoso symbol, and many members speculate that it has a satanic meaning behind it. Fans have found the source of Page's symbol from a 1557 book, Ars Magica Arteficii, by J. Cardan. One of the theories saw the symbol as Page placing his own twist on it. The "Z" represents the astrological sign of Capricorn, which is Page's sign and then the "oSo" aligns with the Satanic origin of "666.

Heck, even the trinity is partially explained. Stairway to heaven, indeed.
Win At Life
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Jewish tradition says the "four standards" under which Israel encamped in the wilderness, to the east, Judah, to the north, Dan, to the west, Ephraim, to the south, Reuben, were respectively a lion, an eagle, an ox, and a man

Rev 4:6-7
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
bigcat22
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I don't always agree with Douglas Wilson, but found this to be a good commentary.

https://www.amazon.com/When-Man-Comes-Around-Commentary/dp/1947644920/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=AXKR80C8RIV4&keywords=when+the+man+comes+around+douglas+wilson&qid=1670276650&sprefix=when+the+man+comes+%2Caps%2C211&sr=8-1
codker92
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Zobel said:

Cmon guys, don't you remember the perspicuity of scripture? It can be read and understood by anyone.


I see you are a man of fine taste.
DirtDiver
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Revelation consists of both figurative and literal language. I would be curious to see an analysis of the amount of 'figurative verses" vs literal and would presume that the literal verses would outnumber the figurative.

I believe John is going to a great point to claim that Christ's reign will be a thousand years in that passage and then events will follow after that time.

Use of the word thousand in Revelation Word Count in Revelation with verses

It's pretty specific here: Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
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