Why do people doubt the bible with written works of antiquity but believe in things like fight or flee reactions come from cavemen with only speculations about caveman? All we have is some crude art.
TrailerTrash said:
Why do people doubt the bible with written works of antiquity but believe in things like fight or flee reactions come from cavemen with only speculations about caveman? All we have is some crude art.
What do you think are the most significant facts supporting that thesis? What facts may contradict that thesis?Quote:
current scholarship places the composition of the earliest books at the 5th or 6th century BC.
Jabin said:What do you think are the most significant facts supporting that thesis? What facts may contradict that thesis?Quote:
current scholarship places the composition of the earliest books at the 5th or 6th century BC.
Jabin said:
My quick reaction is that I think I agree with that. Other than perhaps in math, I am not aware of anything in life that provides absolute proof of anything. At some point, every conclusion requires some leap. The question is whether that leap is reasonable or not.
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In the case of the OPs question - a theory that fight or flight behavior is the result of evolved traits over millions of years based on current scientific data and evolutionary theory and modeling is reasonable within naturalism. That same theory is not reasonable within young earth creationism.
And I think this would serve as my response to the OP's question.
DirtDiver said:
"result of evolved traits over millions of years based on current scientific data?"
Can you tell us how one collects data on behaviors of anything without a written record or someone being an eyewitness to observe the behavior?
"a theory that fight or flight behavior is the result of evolved traits over millions of years based on current scientific data and evolutionary theory and modeling is reasonable within naturalism"kurt vonnegut said:DirtDiver said:
"result of evolved traits over millions of years based on current scientific data?"
Can you tell us how one collects data on behaviors of anything without a written record or someone being an eyewitness to observe the behavior?
One collects data on observable natural mechanisms and makes extrapolations between what is known and uses forms of reasoning to develop theories which are subject to refinement or rejection. I am not aware of any version of naturalism that suggests that evolutionary theory is based on millions of years of eyewitness accounts.
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How does a geologist determine how a mountain range was formed without someone alive to witness it? How does an astronomer determine how stars behave without a sufficient timescale to observe a single stars' behavior? How does a detective observe a crime scene and gather evidence to determine who committed a crime without an eyewitness?
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The question at hand is where does 'flight or fight' come from? I would put forward the idea that it is likely an evolved trait based on a long natural biological evolution. Others might put forward the idea that is a trait given to human beings by God. If the lack of millions of years of data and eyewitness accounts is a criticism of my theory, what does it do to your theory? How many eye witness accounts do we have of God creating this trait in humans?
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They use evidence and make guesses. Sometimes the guesses are reasonable and sometimes they are not. Sometimes the guesses are far fetched despite having no observable evidence that it was even possible. The Flood Story of Noah is a great example:
The evidence is that dinosaurs were buried alive (bones intact in sedimentary rock layers) on a round planet
Possible options
Option 1: Global Flood
Option 2: Ice Age
Option 3: Meteor
One of the 3 options has a recorded written history of a global destruction of all life on earth.
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"a theory that fight or flight behavior is the result of evolved traits over millions of years based on current scientific data and evolutionary theory and modeling is reasonable within naturalism"
I'm trying to understand your view on this statement you had made. Is there data that exists that show how behavioral traits over millions of years?
If I find the bones of an ancient animals we may be able to guess at travel patterns, diets, and cause of death, but to claim we have data for behaviors where I struggle.
We know enough about cows in order to make general statements about their behavior.Quote:
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If I go out to the ranches and walk through the bone pile, I cannot determine if the dead cow was a good mother or a feisty one? Was the bull docile or aggressive? Would he fight or flee. Would he fight even though there was not a threat?
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Example 2:
What are the behavioral differences between animals between 2,000,000 years ago and 1,990,000 millions years ago, and 1,990,000 and 1,989,000 years ago?
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Possible options
Option 1: Global Flood
Option 2: Ice Age
Option 3: Meteor
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How many humans witness their parents having sex to conceive them?
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On the Biblical account God created 1 man and 1 woman who got to meet and have a speaking in person relationship with their creator with a vast array of traits. We do have observations in the Biblical text that there are more options to fight or flight. Many people faceplant or tremble in fear at an interaction. Some immediately confess their sinfulness.
If you mean supernatural intervention is beyond something we can comprehend because we can not do scientific experiments, you are correct. A supernatural event is by definition a break in the laws of nature that cannot be repeated in a lab. Scientific experimentation is not the only branch of knowledge. A supernatural intervention can be comprehended or understood in part if it's witnessed, described, and explained. Example: I cannot explain how does God physically resurrects a body. I can comprehend that Jesus died and was resurrected and performed miracles based upon the eye witness testimony and that the one doing miracles at many times explained what he was doing and why.Quote:
My problem with the counter - evidences that you might provide is not that they cannot be true, but that they require a supernatural intervention, which by definition is beyond something we can comprehend or understand.
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I believe things follow physical laws. If there were proof that physical laws change over time, that would be fascinating. I do not rule out the possibility of God or a supernatural force intervening with the physical. . . . but, belief without evidence, (which is the definition of faith) is just that - it is a belief in something without evidence.
I don't believe anyone disagrees with variance within a kind. I think the great smoke and mirror show of our time is: reproductive variance is evidence for monkeys to man evolution.Quote:
Evolutionary theory is built on a couple of key ideas; Reproduction with variance and natural selection. Organisms that reproduce, will reproduce with variance (this is easy enough to study and provide evidence for). Natural selection on a certain scale is also easy enough to observe and gather evidence for. Someone more fluent in evolutionary biology could provide a description of the biological mechanisms that account for variance and mutation, but these are large scale forces that shape life.
What can processes do given billions of years?Quote:
The earth is old and life is old. For billions of years, organisms have been reproducing and surviving. Those who have benefitted from 'positive' variances are more likely to survive and reproduce. Those with 'negative' variances are more likely not to survive and reproduce. In this manner, variances which add to an organisms ability to reproduce, are more likely to be passed on. And we have plenty of records of populations of animals doing just this. The question becomes, what can this process do given billions of years? If you believe in a 6000 year old Earth, the question is nonsense. If you believe in an older Earth, the answer is potentially 'a lot!'
Assumption 1: The fossil record is a timeline vs a single catastrophic event where life on earth was buried alive and sorted.Quote:
I believe we have a complete enough fossil record to be able to look at a timeline of organisms that have lived and make the conclusion that certain organisms live at certain times and not others. One way to explain this observation is to say God is constantly making new creatures that just go extinct. Another way to explain it is to consider the possibility that animals evolve from species to species through the mechanisms we know already work from generation to generation and on smaller time scales. Given enough time, a population can change its physical appearance, size, diet. . . . and its psychology, instincts, and intelligence.
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It is not difficult to see why 'fight or flight' works within natural selection. We observe fight or flight instincts in other animals and it doesn't take an expert to understand why a mouse would react in this manner if cornered by a cat. Run away from the big scary predator. . . . if you can't, maybe get lucky by getting a bite in and startling the cat enough to get away.
Agreed. We can assume they always have behaved this way. We do not have millions of years of facts that describe their behavior.Quote:
We know enough about cows in order to make general statements about their behavior.
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Example 2:
What are the behavioral differences between animals between 2,000,000 years ago and 1,990,000 millions years ago, and 1,990,000 and 1,989,000 years ago?
This example fundamentally misses the point of what evolutionary theory claims to explain
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One of the fascinating things to me about the flood idea is that it suggests that 4,000 years ago, all life (save for what was on the boat) is killed off. And all animals and people today are descendants from them. This means that in 4,000 years:
1. humans spread out to the corners of the planet and set up civilizations all over.
2. Since we have archeological evidence of civilizations before the flood and soon after the flood, humans must have repopulated the Earth in the blink of an eye. . . . starting from one family.
3. Every racial or geographic physical distinction in a population is the result of some 200 generations of human reproduction with variance. In other words, every human race was created through 200 or so human generations.
4. Given the fact that we have art and portraits from Africa and China and the Americas, etc. that predate Christ, then it means that every human race was created even quicker . . . maybe 70 to 100 generations of human reproduction.
5. With 8.5 million species of organisms on the planet, the rate of species creation after the flood must have been upwards of 2,000 new species a year.
In other words, use your imagination to guess what may have happened in the past is not science.Quote:
No, but, we understand how human reproduction occurs and can make reasonable guesses. Take this exact type of reasoning and apply it to 3 billion years of life.
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We also have observations in the Harry Potter text that there are wizards and witches that do magic and fight dragons. This is not proof or evidence that it is true.
If a God is real and outside of time He's why would He not be able to make predictions? In fact I think He did which produces one of the greatest evidences we can observe.Quote:
One of the differences between religion and science is that science has the ability to make predictions. The geologist we talked about before looking at the mountain range can look at the mountains and areas and make predictions on where to find types of rocks or minerals. The astronomer can observe the heavens and make predictions. The biologist can make predictions. Religion does not offer any similar path to verification. It must be believed. . . . . which is fine. But, I think it is a huge mistake to conflate religious belief with scientific evidence.