Reformation Day

5,191 Views | 109 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by AgLiving06
Pro Sandy
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AG
The day Luther fought to stop those awful elementary school Halloween parades. Or maybe it was the selling of indulgences. Either way,
Did we in our own strength confide,
Our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side,
The Man of God's own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabaoth is his name,
From age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.


Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.
And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).
SoulSlaveAG2005
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AG
Quitters.
This message has been approved by Brad, Jerry and Mitch..
Win At Life
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AG
Looks like the one on F16 got nuked
Howdy Dammit
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Martin Q. Blank
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SoulSlaveAG2005 said:

Quitters.
Stockholm syndrome
Zobel
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AG
Reformation Schism Day

fify
jrico2727
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AG
Lord Jesus Christ, at your Last Supper you prayed to the Father that all should be one. Send your Holy Spirit upon all who bear your name and seek to serve you. Strengthen our faith in you, and lead us to love one another in humility. May we who have been reborn in one baptism be united in one faith under one Shepherd. Amen.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

Reformation Schism Day

fify
It is Reformation Day. Schism Day is July 16, 1054.
jrico2727
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Zobel said:

Reformation Schism Day

fify
It is Reformation Day. Schism Day is July 16, 1054.



Sapper Redux
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Zobel said:

Reformation Schism Day

fify


Zobel
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AG
They're both schism days and neither should be celebrated as if they were good things.
747Ag
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AG
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

They're both schism days and neither should be celebrated as if they were good things.
You're right. Both Cerularius and Luther should have repented after their excommunications.
Zobel
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AG
Why would the patriarch from Constantinople repent for an invalid excommunication from a cardinal acting without papal authority? That's not how things work.
Martin Q. Blank
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Zobel said:

Why would the patriarch from Constantinople repent for an invalid excommunication from a cardinal acting without papal authority? That's not how things work.
Because he was using leavened bread for the Lord's supper and everyone knows you should use unleavened.
Jabin
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Zobel said:

Reformation Schism Day

fify
You're kinda right. The RCC created a schism by excommunicating Luther, for matters they later conceded he was right, and from which the church has still not recovered.

Thank God though that he will not allow his church to remain corrupted by vile Pharisees in robes who claim to be our spiritual leaders.

Zobel
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AG
Im not RCC or Protestant. Celebrating schism is dumb.
Jabin
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Zobel said:

Im not RCC or Protestant. Celebrating schism is dumb.
But celebrating a return to God's truth is great. Christ created schism from the established Judaic religion of his day. Unity is good, but not if it perpetrates evil.
jkag89
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First you have little understanding of what excommunication actually is and second, nobody is claiming the Catholic Church is anyway blameless here. What Zobel was trying to point out is why does any Christian celebrate a rent in the Body of Christ?
Jabin
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As I just pointed out to Zobel, I don't think people are celebrating the rent but rather the return to truth. (Actually, this whole discussion is entirely academic because, as far as I know, nobody is actually doing any celebration about the Reformation today or any other day.)
Zobel
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AG
Jabin said:

Zobel said:

Im not RCC or Protestant. Celebrating schism is dumb.
But celebrating a return to God's truth is great. Christ created schism from the established Judaic religion of his day. Unity is good, but not if it perpetrates evil.


Comparing Luther to Christ? Bold move.

Which Reformer offered the truth? Luther, Calvin, Zwingli? In the first generation they were all in schism from each other.

At any rate your theology or history is wrong. Christ did not create a schism from "the established Judaic religion". There was no such thing. There were several parties, several Judaisms. There was no "unified" Judaism. And even further, He did not separate from Judaism - He led the people prepared for Him by John, the faithful remnant.
Zobel
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AG
https://celebratereformationday.com/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/discerninghistory.com/2017/10/seven-ways-to-celebrate-reformation-day/amp/

https://ichoosejoy.org/how-to-host-a-reformation-day-celebration/

https://jusclassical.com/15-reasons-celebrate-reformation-day/
Jabin
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Quote:

Comparing Luther to Christ? Bold move.
Now how did I know that you would get sucked into that cheap shot which is not even accurate? In no way did I compare Luther to Christ. Rather, I used Christ as an example, which we should all do in our lives. You're better than that, Zobel. Normally you engage in the ideas under discussion and don't take gotcha shots like that.

So what if there was no single unified Judaic religion at the time of Christ? Christ led his followers away from all of them. Whether Judaism was unified or not is completely irrelevant to the point under discussion.
Zobel
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AG
If you don't want me to say you're comparing Christ to Luther, don't make a direct comparison of the schism of the Reformation to the ministry of Christ Jesus. It's not a cheap shot to point out the inappropriate nature of the comparison.


Quote:

So what if there was no single unified Judaic religion at the time of Christ? Christ led his followers away from all of them. Whether Judaism was unified or not is completely irrelevant to the point under discussion.
Your original point said "Christ created schism from the established Judaic religion of his day. Unity is good, but not if it perpetrates evil."

There was no singular established Judaic religion.
There was no unity in the Judaic tradition.

The "so what" is because your point was wrong. If it doesn't matter, then what point were you trying to make by talking about unity?

And again - Christ did NOT lead his followers away from all of them. He did not criticize the Pharisees' theology, He criticized their hypocrisy. St Paul was a Pharisee and never stopped being one. Christ Jesus did not lead followers away from St John's teachings.

There is always a faithful remnant. In 1 Kings 19 the Lord tells Elijah he is not the only faithful one left, but there are 7,000 who never bowed to Baal. St John came to call those faithful and prepare them for the Messiah. Those people did not "leave" the faith, they persevered in it.

This is the problem with celebrating the schism of the Reformation. It causes you to read history through this warped lens, and it influences a flat out theologically incorrect understanding of the people of Israel.
chap
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AG
Really struggling to understand this particular brand of arrogance.

"I'm not Catholic or Protestant, but Protestants sure are dumb! Oh yeah, and warped too. "
Zobel
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AG
Where did I say Protestants were dumb or warped?
one MEEN Ag
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AG
Here is a remedial course on the last thousand years of christianity:

The bishop of Rome took on the same authoritative role as a whole church counsel by themselves and changed the Nicene Creed. Rome proceeds to corrupt over 500 years of consolidating power into a sole authority. Adding things to christianity that were not in orthodoxy prior.

Luther arrives on the scene and is rightfully pissed at how the catholic church laity in Rome is acting, but his solution is to doing exactly what the bishop of rome did 500 years prior and seize authority for himself. He meant well in his own mind, but he repeated the actions of the authority structure he rejected. Sacraments were reduced, and books were eliminated by the whims of one man.

The last 500 years has been a dead sprint to rend the bible out from the church that created it, declare the ability to interpret it individually, and slowly pick off the church traditions.

The result is today you have every flavor of interpretation of every passage under the sun. A marketplace of people who claim to be christian but can't make sense of the first 1000 years of church history because it is so foreign to how they practice.

Not a good day at all. The modern protestant marketplace is the inverse of the tower of babel. The Babylonian's sought to 'bring God down' and enslave Him as a genie in a bottle. The marketplace doesn't bring the one God down, but sends prayers addressed to an infinitely varying versions of God back up. Its two sides of the same coin of trying to dictate to God who God is.
dermdoc
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AG
Great post.

To me, orthodoxy became corrupted when the Western church
Relied almost solely on Augustine for its theology.

His theology on hell brought about the whole philosophy of "saving" people and saying the Sinner's prayer for "salvation".

It is all about staying out of hell rather than a relationship with God through Jesus and and an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To lead a more abundant, joyful life growing through sanctification/theosis.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BluHorseShu
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dermdoc said:

Great post.

To me, orthodoxy became corrupted when the Western church
Relied almost solely on Augustine for its theology.

His theology on hell brought about the whole philosophy of "saving" people and saying the Sinner's prayer for "salvation".

It is all about staying out of hell rather than a relationship with God through Jesus and and an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To lead a more abundant, joyful life growing through sanctification/theosis.
While he did talk about some of what you mentioned, that seems to be an oversimplification of the depth of his writings. He spoke at great length about love for the Trinity and taking our thoughts, worries, ideas etc to God thru Christ in prayer.
dermdoc
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BluHorseShu said:

dermdoc said:

Great post.

To me, orthodoxy became corrupted when the Western church
Relied almost solely on Augustine for its theology.

His theology on hell brought about the whole philosophy of "saving" people and saying the Sinner's prayer for "salvation".

It is all about staying out of hell rather than a relationship with God through Jesus and and an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To lead a more abundant, joyful life growing through sanctification/theosis.
While he did talk about some of what you mentioned, that seems to be an oversimplification of the depth of his writings. He spoke at great length about love for the Trinity and taking our thoughts, worries, ideas etc to God thru Christ in prayer.


I agree. But his thoughts on ECT hell and that unbaptized infants go to hell (albeit a less severe "level") are in direct opposition to other church fathers like St. Gregory and Origen.

I believe he also advocated "forced" confession as a means of salvation.

I do not believe in ECT hell as St. Augustine wrote about. So that is my problem with his theology.
And I do not believe in forced "salvation".
Otherwise he is brilliant.

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Thaddeus73
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AG
The birthday of moral relativism...The bible means what you think it means, not what it really means...
dermdoc
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AG
Thaddeus73 said:

The birthday of moral relativism...The bible means what you think it means, not what it really means...


Like purgatory?
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Jabin
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Now you're changing your argument.

First you said that I was comparing Luther to Christ.

Next you erroneously argue that I was comparing the Reformation to the ministry of Christ.

I did neither.

What I did do was respond to your point that, in essence, was that schism within the Church is per se wrong, without qualification. I was rebutting that point by demonstrating that Christ himself was, at times and under certain circumstances, schismatic. I did not compare any person or any movement to Christ.

And was the schism the responsibility of the Reformers, or that of the RCC church? The RCC church could have responded to the light being shined on its error and sin the same way that Peter and James responded to Paul's challenge to them.

Your cheap shot was ignoring the point I was making and continue to make - that the schism was not caused by the Reformers and, further, that pursuit of God's truth and holiness is never bad even if it results in schism.
Zobel
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AG
My friend, you directly compared Reformation day to Christ's alleged schism from "the established Judaic religion of his day". Last I checked Reformation day is on the anniversary of Luther's posting of his 95 theses, no? It wasn't my comparison, it was yours. The Reformation is in no way comparable to Christ's ministry.


Quote:

What I did do was respond to your point that, in essence, was that schism within the Church is per se wrong, without qualification.
I don't know about wrong, but it is bad. Just like a divorce is per se bad. Whether or not such a thing is justified or whether one party is more or less in the wrong than another is a different question than the quality of the thing itself. Schism in the body of Christ is a tragedy. The only reason people celebrate Reformation day is because they think Luther was right (or Zwingli, or Calvin, or whomever). Schism and heresy is a work of the flesh.

Quote:

I was rebutting that point by demonstrating that Christ himself was, at times and under certain circumstances, schismatic. I did not compare any person or any movement to Christ.
This is nonsensical. Christ cannot be schismatic, He is the criterion. You could say that others separated from Him, or from the Truth, but that action is solely on their side, not His. Schism is sin. And this is precisely why you are comparing the movement - by linking the two you have absolutely compared Luther's separation from the RCC to Christ's alleged schism from certain Judaic groups. Your argument boils down to - it's ok to have a schism if you're right, because Christ was schismatic and He was right. The unsaid portion is that Luther (or the other Reformers) were right, so it's ok that they were schismatic.

Quote:

And was the schism the responsibility of the Reformers, or that of the RCC church? The RCC church could have responded to the light being shined on its error and sin the same way that Peter and James responded to Paul's challenge to them.
The answer to who has responsibility is "yes". But the greater wrong was on the Reformers, from where I stand. It isn't as if we had a split in the RCC resulting in two factions or heresies, but we had a split resulting in a shattering of communion into uncountable splinters. Once the door was opened the Reformers went separate ways within years. How can you talk about Truth? "Has Christ been divided?" "He is not the God of disorder."

Quote:

Your cheap shot was ignoring the point I was making and continue to make - that the schism was not caused by the Reformers and, further, that pursuit of God's truth and holiness is never bad even if it results in schism.
Ha! Which schism? Who pursued God's truth - Zwingli, Calvin, Luther? It cannot be all, they're mutually exclusive in their claims, they all broke from each other.

"There must be heresies among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."

"Stumbling blocks are necessary to come, but woe to the man by whom the offense comes!"






Jabin
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They may have all pursued God's truth, but that doesn't mean that they all got it right or weren't diverted in their pursuit.

And did the RCC pursue God's truth? Was Pope Alexander VI closer to God's truth than Luther or Zwingli? Was Tetzel better than Luther because he remained a good Catholic even though he misled people, perhaps to their eternal damnation?

And how about that Patriarch of Russia and Moscow? He seems to be dead center within God's will, no?

You seem to believe that a monolithic church will somehow protect individuals from error. History shows that you are and never have been right.

Who cares what doctrine Pope Alexander VI claimed to believe in if he was sleeping with his daughter?

Divorce is bad, very bad. But it wasn't Luther that divorced the church. It was the church that divorced Luther. You seem to be blaming Luther for something that he had no control over, other than by recanting and accepting heresy.
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