As a non Catholic….how do some Catholics resolve the issue of voting Democrat when your religion specifically denounces birth control, abortion, etc?

Sadly, they aren't really Catholic. Church is filled with those. Raised with the faith but without the conviction.

Howdy Dammit said:

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Sadly, they aren't really Catholic. Church is filled with those. Raised with the faith but without the conviction.

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While in understand your frustration, I think to deny that they are Catholic is in error also. If they are baptized Catholic, they are so for all eternity. To say otherwise is to deny another teaching of the church.

Now, some are in grave sin as they actively know and with a rightly and well formed conscience choose to deny and bring scandal to the church. We should pray for them and actively work to correct them.

Many others, however, may not have a properly formed conscience on the teachings and while still in error, need to be prayed for, and gently guided to the truth.

This is a better way to put it. Thanks

Quote:

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If they are baptized Catholic, they are so for all eternity. To say otherwise is to deny another teaching of the church.

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its good to see yall admit you agree with "once saved, always saved"...

larry culpepper said:

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newbie11 said:

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As a non Catholic….how do some Catholics resolve the issue of voting Democrat when your religion specifically denounces birth control, abortion, etc?

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Are you implying that Catholics should be against the legality of birth control?

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They not only should be, but are bound to be so.

Howdy Dammit said:

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Sadly, they aren't really Catholic. Church is filled with those. Raised with the faith but without the conviction.

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Nice judgement there. You should skip right through purgatory and into heaven with that mentality.

newbie11 said:

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As a non Catholic….how do some Catholics resolve the issue of voting Democrat when your religion specifically denounces birth control, abortion, etc?

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Likely because, aside from abortion, there are numerous items that democrats advocate for that align with their views, e.g. abolition of the death penalty, social welfare programs, etc.

So I guess that all trumps killing babies

I agree that they vote D because of those, but it's a shame they do because Catholic doctrine supports conservative voting much more in most of these issues.

Death penalty - Pope Francis only recently changed guidance on this, and it is open for debate. One example would be the man who escaped prison this year and killed that grandfather and grandsons at their hunting home - the government simply cannot guarantee that deadly criminals won't hurt/kill others again. The (latest version of) Catechism is unfortunately wrong on this.

Social welfare programs are just that - and not related to Catholic teaching at all. If they really wanted to help they'd be doing so in their community and not relying on the government to do it.

Anyway, not disagreeing with you, but most Catholics I know who vote D are either willfully going against the faith or are extremely shallow in how they view these and similar issues.

I think what happens for some folks, is that they see abortion and nothing else. I certainly am in agreement with the RCC on that and the RCC's position on immigration, the environment, preferential option for the poor, gun violence, and other social justice issues. That is where the rift is.

It would seem that my GOP Catholic brothers and sisters are one issue only. I can respect that, I just don't think they can respect the fact that I have a broader view about how I go about my life trying to build up the kingdom of God in my neck of the woods.

HTH

PabloSerna said:

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I think what happens for some folks, is that they see abortion and nothing else. I certainly am in agreement with the RCC on that and the RCC's position on immigration, the environment, preferential option for the poor, gun violence, and other social justice issues. That is where the rift is.

It would seem that my GOP Catholic brothers and sisters are one issue only. I can respect that, I just don't think they can respect the fact that I have a broader view about how I go about my life trying to build up the kingdom of God in my neck of the woods.

HTH

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There is something to be said about proportionality, all those issues are good, but how do you stack all of them against a 50 years of prenatal genocide. Kinda hard to build up the Kingdom when supporting those issues gives power to those who prevent so many from ever taking a breath, and receiving the sacraments, not to mention the damage it does to their mothers and fathers. I don't like the republican party or even party politics, but there is a clear choice when it comes to which is most morally evil and who supports not only infanticide but most other forms of degeneracy as well.

PabloSerna said:

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I think what happens for some folks, is that they see abortion and nothing else. I certainly am in agreement with the RCC on that and the RCC's position on immigration, the environment, preferential option for the poor, gun violence, and other social justice issues. That is where the rift is.

It would seem that my GOP Catholic brothers and sisters are one issue only. I can respect that, I just don't think they can respect the fact that I have a broader view about how I go about my life trying to build up the kingdom of God in my neck of the woods.

HTH

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Not a Catholic but I believe abortion is the only thing you listed that directly goes against basic tenants of the Catholic Church.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

And the rift is the same as in Protestant churches. "Social justice" issues have trumped basic, long held, orthodox tenants.

PabloSerna said:

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Howdy Dammit said:

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Sadly, they aren't really Catholic. Church is filled with those. Raised with the faith but without the conviction.

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Nice judgement there. You should skip right through purgatory and into heaven with that mentality.

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Wasn't a judgement. Just a statement. There are dogmas that are required to be in alignment with the Catholic faith. It's not a judgement to state that someone who doesnt believe in the Eucharist is not a Catholic. Just a statement. I believe Genocide of the most innocent would fall under that category.

There is a huge problem with cooperating with the civil government as a means to enact any kind of Christian concept of social justice.

Is the teaching of the Catholic Church that you should not use birth control/have an abortion?

Or is the teaching of the Catholic Church that birth control/abortion should be illegal?

Admittedly, it has been a long time since I studied church teaching in Catholic HS, but I don't recall any teachings on "though shalt vote Republican". And last I checked, the Holy Roman Empire no longer exists and the United States of America is not a Papal state.

That is, there is a difference in laws and personal actions. One could accept birth control as a legal
option yet choose not to use birth control due to their following of church doctrine. One can also work to end abortion in ways other than voting Republican.

I'm not sure that is the right way to look at it. I would suggest instead that you consider responsibility. The scriptures are clear that political leaders are responsible for how they wield their power, and that people are given power and authority from Christ. For the majority of history the question of how Christians should wield political authority was limited to a very, very small group of people. Today in democratic states we each have a small measure of that political authority, and we are each going to be answerable to Christ at the judgment for how we use it. I think this extends to the consequences of voting for representatives, in that in some way each of us is also responsible for the actions of those we enable.

Within this framework I genuinely don't understand how a Christian can cast a vote for an openly pro-abortion candidate in good conscience.

At the same time I do not think the Republican party is the party of Christianity, and I don't believe that being pro-life gives a candidate a right to my vote.

There is a very great folly in the idea that the sword, the political power, can be the means through which Christ establishes justice on the earth. It's unscriptural and it is dangerous. It is much more common in history that the political power seeks to or successfully coopts the structure of the faith to achieve its own ends than the other way around. We are citizens of the kingdom and reign of Christ, who is both our King and Priest, and no more than sojourners in any kingdom of the world.

PabloSerna said:

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I think what happens for some folks, is that they see abortion and nothing else. I certainly am in agreement with the RCC on that and the RCC's position on immigration, the environment, preferential option for the poor, gun violence, and other social justice issues. That is where the rift is.

It would seem that my GOP Catholic brothers and sisters are one issue only. I can respect that, I just don't think they can respect the fact that I have a broader view about how I go about my life trying to build up the kingdom of God in my neck of the woods.

HTH

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I think you've identified some of the rifts quite well: "immigration, the environment, preferential option for the poor, gun violence, and other social justice issues"

I don't understand how the Dem's policies line up better with the RCC positions on any of these - to the contrary, it is easily argued that the GOP does. We could dive into them but of course each could be it's own thread... When I talk with Catholics who vote Dem it's generally because they view the role of government differently than I do. Whereas they look to government to solve most every problem, I look to it as a means to safeguard God-given rights and be used sparingly otherwise. All of the issues you mentioned are not as black and white as abortion - that combined with current extreme polarization makes both sides look at any one of them and say "wtf are they thinking?"

We do have trouble with your broader view when you actively try to wordsmith different meanings into Catholic doctrine that is already extremely well-defined.

BiochemAg97 said:

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Agree as followers of Christ (not just Catholics), we bare some responsibility for the actions of officials we elect.

However, I think single issue voting becomes a problem. Like you said, a pro life candidate should not automatically get you vote. Certainly a pro life candidate who is actively against Christ's teachings in multiple other areas is probably not a responsible choice.

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I play in this sandbox a lot when considering votes.

If a candidate chooses to affiliate with a political party who has a basic tenant to advance abortion, it is an automatic no. No other "good" they can advance would outweigh the proportional evil of advancing abortion.

However, just being pro life does not earn you my vote. If other policies are incongruent with my beliefs or if I just generally think you are a bad candidate/person or unqualified, I will abstain from voting for you.

To quote the great Rush- if you choose not to decide, you'll still have made a choice.

Not quite.

Cooperation in the sinful act of another by material support which is remote, that is, not intimately connected to the evil act is sinful. However, under certain conditions it can be tolerated.
The act by which cooperation is rendered is not itself sinful; that is, it has two effects; the good one is chosen, the bad one is tolerated.
There is a proportionately serious reason to justify tolerating the evil of another.
The danger of scandal is avoided, by protest, explanation, or some other means

You'd have to make the case that there is some proportional upside that offsets abortion. 625,000 abortions per year.

I have thought about this but never heard a name associated with it as a concept, so thank you for introducing it to me! I sincerely appreciate this board for continually improving my vocabulary and knowledge base.

I decided to do some research as a result. Per Catholic Answers, you forgot a key part to that:

"...When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons." - Benedict XVI

So what are the proportionate reasons you have? Of those you listed, I argue as the article does that they don't hold a candle to abortion at the scale the Democrats in the US want to implement it.


https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/explaining-ratzingers-proportionate-reasons

To quote from the article on other reasons:
"Jobs? The economy? Taxes? Education? The environment? Immigration? Forget it. We do not have nine million people dying in a typical president's term of office due to bad job programs, bad economic policies, bad taxes, bad education, bad environmental law, bad immigration rulesor even all of these combined. All of them together cannot provide a reason proportionate to the need to end abortion.

Make no mistake: Abortion is the preeminent moral issue of our time. It is the black hole that out-masses every other issue. Presenting any other issues as if they were proportionate to it is nothing but smoke and mirrors."

Wow, that's an impressive non-sequitur.

So you are saying that these issues outweigh abortion as it is currently in the US then in your opinion? Would like to get a yes or no on that if you please.

Regarding redistribution of wealth, St. Vincent de Paul and numerous other charities do that day in and day out. And they do it well and with compassion, both things the government cannot do. Like I said earlier, what is government actually for? I would prefer they get out of the way and let us take care of our own poor, our own suffering, and our own immigrants while the government focuses on protecting rights and defending our country.