Ancient Humans routinely practiced cannibalism

1,314 Views | 11 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Jabin
Jabin
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So much for the noble savage:

Paleo diet: Ancient humans practiced cannibalism - Big Think

The article demonstrates the semi-scientific nature of anthropology and archaeology, i.e., facts mixed in with speculation. The facts are the evidence of cannibalism; the motives are pure speculation. For all we know, ancient humans may well have routinely hunted each other for food. Or perhaps hunting other humans was part of the ritual. We just don't know.
Martin Q. Blank
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Ancient? Weren't Indians doing this before Europeans put a stop to it?
Jabin
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Ancient? Weren't Indians doing this before Europeans put a stop to it?
Did the article exclude Indians? But you're right. They've tested coprolites left behind at the cliff dwellings out west (some left in the abandoned campfires - as perhaps a statement or message?) and many have contained human remains within them.
schmendeler
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AG
Obligatory transubstantiation joke
barbacoa taco
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AG
Guess i gotta try out a paleo diet now
Sapper Redux
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Jabin said:

So much for the noble savage:

Paleo diet: Ancient humans practiced cannibalism - Big Think

The article demonstrates the semi-scientific nature of anthropology and archaeology, i.e., facts mixed in with speculation. The facts are the evidence of cannibalism; the motives are pure speculation. For all we know, ancient humans may well have routinely hunted each other for food. Or perhaps hunting other humans was part of the ritual. We just don't know.


There's not much evidence for hunting humans for food (and we do have plenty of evidence for early hominid hunting). Mostly it's ritualistic, often after a natural death.
Jabin
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Sapper Redux said:

Jabin said:

So much for the noble savage:

Paleo diet: Ancient humans practiced cannibalism - Big Think

The article demonstrates the semi-scientific nature of anthropology and archaeology, i.e., facts mixed in with speculation. The facts are the evidence of cannibalism; the motives are pure speculation. For all we know, ancient humans may well have routinely hunted each other for food. Or perhaps hunting other humans was part of the ritual. We just don't know.


There's not much evidence for hunting humans for food (and we do have plenty of evidence for early hominid hunting). Mostly it's ritualistic, often after a natural death.
Oh, come on! What evidence? Video evidence? Written accounts? Eyewitness testimony?

Neither you nor anyone else has even the vaguest clue as to the manner or cause of death. Archaeology itself has been described as relying merely on the rags and tatters of ancient civilizations. Ancient hominids didn't leave us even rags or tatters.
Sapper Redux
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Ancient humans didn't exactly compost their used items or grind everything into dust. They've left any number of sites with trash and bones. If people are regularly hunting other people there are going to be some serious signs of unhealed trauma on bones to go along with signs of consumption, including scraping tools and teeth marks. You'd also expect evidence of certain types of people being favored. There's none of that. There's evidence of cannibalism but not violence associated with hunting on those bodies. There's also the problem of population numbers. Early humans were pretty dispersed. Hunting each other would have logistically been difficult and could quickly have spiraled into population-ending territory as it did with our hunting of some big game during the last Ice Age. Finally, there's the problem of no contemporary corollaries. Evidence of cannibalism can be found in almost every recent human population (not just Indians). Evidence of actively hunting humans for food is rare to the point of near-nonexistent.
Jabin
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Quote:

Mostly it's ritualistic, often after a natural death.
You're just making that statement up. You have no evidence whatsoever whether ancient hominids ate other humans ritualistically, after a natural death, or otherwise.

Plus, we have plenty of more contemporary evidence of cannibalism that almost never occurred after natural death. For example, the Texas Karankawas apparently practiced cannibalism. They may not have done it while "hunting" other humans, but it did follow them killing their enemies. There's not any practical difference between cannibalism after hunting or after killing an enemy.

You also fall into the trap of extrapolating from contemporary examples to ancient ones. That extrapolation may or may not be accurate. An example of where historians and archaeologists have been shown to be wrong in making such extrapolations is using the "modern" Berbers to make erroneous conclusions about ancient nomadic civilizations.

Quote:

Early humans were pretty dispersed. Hunting each other would have logistically been difficult and could quickly have spiraled into population-ending territory as it did with our hunting of some big game during the last Ice Age.

But we have overwhelming evidence that population-ending activities by humans against each other did occur. Until now, we have not associated cannibalism with that activity, but evidence is emerging that cannibalism was associated. As I mentioned above, the evidence is that the western cliff-dwellers were driven out of their cliffs by enemies and cannibalism was associated with that warfare. There are zillions of other examples of humans wiping out competing tribes throughout history and pre-history.

And the debate is still raging as to whether the loss of large animals during the last Ice Age was caused by humans, by climate change, by other factors, or by some combination of multiple factors.

Quote:

Evidence of actively hunting humans for food is rare to the point of near-nonexistent.

What about hunting them because they're an enemy and then eating them after successfully killing them?

Up until recently, there was not much written about the evidence for cannibalism. Was it because it wasn't there, because it was overlooked, or because scholars didn't want to talk about it? You are making the common mistake of assuming that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Based on your reasoning, we would have to conclude that neither the Anglo-Saxons nor the Normans ever invaded England because the archaeological evidence for those invasions is almost completely absent.

Finally, how can you make such a definitive statement? Have you reviewed all of the anthropological reports to verify your assertion? I know that you are a historian specializing in American history, but wasn't aware that you were an authority on anthropology, as well.

Sapper Redux
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You're conflating ritual activities within larger motivations and activities with causality. Ritual cannibalism is a far cry from actively hunting humans to meet food needs. Those are not the same. And yes, there is evidence to differentiate that archeologists use. You always seem to do this, where you demand higher and higher levels of evidence against your point whenever you can't actually demonstrate your own argument.

As for the megafauna extinction, the evidence is very, very strongly in favor of human hunting pressures causing or, at best, rapidly pushing the end of those species.

Oh, and I've done work on ritual torture, dismemberment, and cannibalism in American Indian societies. So yes, I've read a lot of the literature.
Jabin
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Quote:

You always seem to do this, where you demand higher and higher levels of evidence against your point whenever you can't actually demonstrate your own argument.
Baloney.

You always start making personal criticisms when people point out the glaring holes in your arguments or "evidence". That's why you got banned, for resorting to ad hominem attacks.

And I'm not making a "point", other than pointing out the lack of evidence for the assertion that hunting of humans was not associated with cannibalism. You are supporting that assertion but also without providing any evidence, only your own assertions. I'm not demanding higher and higher levels of evidence. I'm requesting any credible evidence. You bow up when I point out that your mere assertions are not evidence or that the arguments you make are not relevant or credible, which is far different than demanding higher and higher levels of evidence.

ETA: And that criticism is rich coming from you. In the discussions on here between atheists (including you) and believers, you constantly demand higher and higher levels of evidence from the believers as they answer your criticisms of Christianity.
Jabin
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Quote:

As for the megafauna extinction, the evidence is very, very strongly in favor of human hunting pressures causing or, at best, rapidly pushing the end of those species.
Climate change, not human activity, led to megafauna extinction | UNSW Newsroom

Did people or climate kill off the megafauna? Actually, it was both (theconversation.com)

Climate change, not human activity, led to megafauna extinction -- ScienceDaily

What (or Who) Killed the Planet's Big Mammals? (thoughtco.com)

Your position is one taken by many scholars, but by no means is your statement a settled conclusion.
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