Baptism

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The Banned
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*preface this by saying it's a spillover from a politics thread where infant baptism came up*

This is more a question for Protestants. Let's say I don't believe in any sacramental power of baptism and believe it's just a sign. Get baptized when you accept Jesus into your heart. If a friend says he's come to believe in Jesus and I say "great! Let's get you baptized", and he then says no he doesn't believe in that part, how would you respond?
Howdy Dammit
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Not Protestant. But I assume at the very minimum you would ask him why he wouldn't partake in a "ritual" that Jesus himself found significant enough to participate in (albeit he didn't need to)
dermdoc
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The Banned said:

*preface this by saying it's a spillover from a politics thread where infant baptism came up*

This is more a question for Protestants. Let's say I don't believe in any sacramental power of baptism and believe it's just a sign. Get baptized when you accept Jesus into your heart. If a friend says he's come to believe in Jesus and I say "great! Let's get you baptized", and he then says no he doesn't believe in that part, how would you respond?


Varies from denomination whether baptism is "necessary" for salvation.

I was raised Baptist and they do not believe it is.
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powerbelly
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I don't think any denominations hold that salvation is impossible without baptism.
dermdoc
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powerbelly said:

I don't think any denominations hold that salvation is impossible without baptism.


I believe the Church of Christ believes baptism is necessary for salvation.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Why would someone NOT do what Jesus and then Peter and Paul specifically command?

Quote:

"Jesus answered [Nicodemus], 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' After this [conversation] Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:5, 22).


16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (]Matthew 28:16-20)

And then in multiple places in the NT:

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him'" (Acts 2:38-39).

"Paul . . . came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said, 'No . . . ' And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized?'" (Acts 19:1-3).

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin" (Rom. 6:3-4, 6).

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body Jews or Greeks, slaves or free and all were made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13).

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:27-28)

"In him [Christ] also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Col. 2:11-13).

"[H]e [God] saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7).
powerbelly
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Good call. I always forget about the Church of Christ despite being related to a semi-well known Church of Christ preacher.
BluHorseShu
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Why would someone NOT do what Jesus and then Peter and Paul specifically command?

Quote:

"Jesus answered [Nicodemus], 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' After this [conversation] Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:5, 22).


16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age" (]Matthew 28:16-20)

And then in multiple places in the NT:

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him'" (Acts 2:38-39).

"Paul . . . came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' And they said, 'No . . . ' And he said, 'Into what then were you baptized?'" (Acts 19:1-3).

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin" (Rom. 6:3-4, 6).

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body Jews or Greeks, slaves or free and all were made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:13).

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:27-28)

"In him [Christ] also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Col. 2:11-13).

"[H]e [God] saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7).

Agreed. Even without getting into whether it's salvific, why would a Christian do what Jesus did and commanded. I was raised southern Baptist (Catholic now) and even in that large church you would have been seen as someone who wasn't serious about becoming a Christian if you didn't get baptized. Honestly it was more ritualistic there than even the Catholic Church where it is required (though there are extenuating circumstances in unique situations where baptism isn't possible …)
dermdoc
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To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.
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jrico2727
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dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.
Amen
BusterAg
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dermdoc said:

powerbelly said:

I don't think any denominations hold that salvation is impossible without baptism.


I believe the Church of Christ believes baptism is necessary for salvation.


Churches of Christ are all autonomous. I would say that most Churches of Christ I know of today have a much softer stance on baptism being nessasary for salvation. I don't really think it's a huge issue, though. Most CoC teach that you should get baptized immediately, but are silent about that is the act saves you.

Old time country churches, not so much
The Banned
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dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.


Agreed. It rolled over from a conversation on infant baptism and (paraphrasing) the poster said baptism doesn't do anything for you. Basically referencing the symbolism belief.

I was flipping that on it's head by asking what would you think if someone refused it. I think the consensus here is even if you don't believe it's salvific, it means something? Yes?
BiochemAg97
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The Banned said:

dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.


Agreed. It rolled over from a conversation on infant baptism and (paraphrasing) the poster said baptism doesn't do anything for you. Basically referencing the symbolism belief.

I was flipping that on it's head by asking what would you think if someone refused it. I think the consensus here is even if you don't believe it's salvific, it means something? Yes?


It means you are willing to do the things to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Basically if you are true in your beliefs, you would follow the teachings of Jesus, baptism, love your neighbor, help others, etc. If you say you believe, but refuse to follow the teachings, do you really believe?

Jesus was baptized and then the Holy Spirit descended upon him. For Catholics, the process is split. Infant baptism, followed by receiving the Holy Spirit when the individual affirms the choice to be a follower of Christ and a member of the Catholic Church.

Jabin
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For those who believe that baptism is an absolute essential requirement for salvation, the more interesting question may be what happens to somebody who believes and then a moment later is killed before they can be baptized.

For the OP, I think that most Protestant Christians, even those who don't believe in the essentiality of baptism, would respond that that person is not really a Christian because they refuse to obey the teachings of and follow the example of Christ.
jkag89
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How the Catholic Church teaches on the necessity of the Sacrament and the possibility of salvation of those who have not been Baptized. Catechism of the Catholic Church
Quote:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
AGC
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Jabin said:

For those who believe that baptism is an absolute essential requirement for salvation, the more interesting question may be what happens to somebody who believes and then a moment later is killed before they can be baptized.

For the OP, I think that most Protestant Christians, even those who don't believe in the essentiality of baptism, would respond that that person is not really a Christian because they refuse to obey the teachings of and follow the example of Christ.


What? I think that's backwards. I think Protestants would consider the person a Christian because they don't view anything sacramental about it. It's just a symbol to them. Especially if belief has already occurred.

For the sacramental Christians when we talk about the necessity of baptism and importance of it we don't do so as an exercise to define God's grace. We don't presume to know what happens to those outside the church. We know what we are taught and we obey.

The fun in between is the argument that children in Protestant churches are essentially Christians by practice and belief but denied the assurance until they take it on for themselves. They pray, they sing, they believe, they serve with their parents, but they're not Christians.
Jabin
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Quote:

What? I think that's backwards. I think Protestants would consider the person a Christian because they don't view anything sacramental about it. It's just a symbol to them. Especially if belief has already occurred.
I was raised as an evangelical Protestant and what I posted is what I was taught. Even though evangelical Protestants may view baptism as "merely" symbolic, nevertheless it was a symbol mandated by Christ and exemplified by Christ.

In other words, there doesn't seem to be much of a functional difference between most of the teachings on baptism.
The Banned
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BiochemAg97 said:

The Banned said:

dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.


Agreed. It rolled over from a conversation on infant baptism and (paraphrasing) the poster said baptism doesn't do anything for you. Basically referencing the symbolism belief.

I was flipping that on it's head by asking what would you think if someone refused it. I think the consensus here is even if you don't believe it's salvific, it means something? Yes?


It means you are willing to do the things to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Basically if you are true in your beliefs, you would follow the teachings of Jesus, baptism, love your neighbor, help others, etc. If you say you believe, but refuse to follow the teachings, do you really believe?

Jesus was baptized and then the Holy Spirit descended upon him. For Catholics, the process is split. Infant baptism, followed by receiving the Holy Spirit when the individual affirms the choice to be a follower of Christ and a member of the Catholic Church.




That's what I find so interesting. Not to be glib, but it reads as follows:

1. Baptism doesn't really do anything for you. Just a symbol. Faith is all that matters.
2. But you have to do it or you're not a follower of Christ you don't have faith if you don't do it.

So baptism isn't essential for salvation but it is essential to be a Christian which is essential for salvation. Ergo, baptism is essential for salvation.

Obviously this leaves out the cases of people who died before being able to get baptized, etc.
one MEEN Ag
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The Banned said:

*preface this by saying it's a spillover from a politics thread where infant baptism came up*

This is more a question for Protestants. Let's say I don't believe in any sacramental power of baptism and believe it's just a sign. Get baptized when you accept Jesus into your heart. If a friend says he's come to believe in Jesus and I say "great! Let's get you baptized", and he then says no he doesn't believe in that part, how would you respond?
So why does a new convert, who knows the least about the religion get to dictate what is and isn't part of the christian sacraments or order? Its really an authority question in disguise.

This is the edge case of protestantism. The person here gets to pick and choose what they believe about Jesus or is important about Christianity and then find a group that fits their description. Or they don't, just declare themself 'spiritual but not religious' and reduce Jesus down to whatever amount of philosophical importance they want.

Theres only really one option here:
-Tell the new believer they're not fully ready to become a member of the church until they learn about baptism and accept the teachings of the church.

This also brings up a core differential belief about baptism. Is it either A) an outward gesture and public declaration of faith or B) a sacrament that carries grace as it represents part of the entrance into the church.

The different church entrances (please correct if wrong):
Orthodoxy would be:
Inquirer->Catechumen (including prayer, fasting, almsgiving, church attendance)->confession->baptism of the whole family->chrismation of the whole family. You are now all standing members of the church.

Catholicism:
Inquirer->Catechumen (I assume also wanting prayer, fasting, almsgiving, church attendance)->confession->baptism of the whole family->chrismation of everyone who is of rational age ->confirmation class for young family members one day once they reach the age of rationality. If you are of age, you are now a standing member of the church. If you are very young, your membership will be complete after confirmation.

Protestant:
-Remove or add anything and everything here based mostly on time between Luther's 95 thesis and your strain of protestantism forming. Usual deviations are: 'if you claim us, we claim you' church membership. Baptism is not part of the membership process but just a display of faith.

AGC
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AG
Jabin said:

Quote:

What? I think that's backwards. I think Protestants would consider the person a Christian because they don't view anything sacramental about it. It's just a symbol to them. Especially if belief has already occurred.
I was raised as an evangelical Protestant and what I posted is what I was taught. Even though evangelical Protestants may view baptism as "merely" symbolic, nevertheless it was a symbol mandated by Christ and exemplified by Christ.

In other words, there doesn't seem to be much of a functional difference between most of the teachings on baptism.


Raised Baptist. Sinner's prayer man. Every summer camp follows this model too. If you asked Jesus into your heart you're saved. The church I left the last few years only did baptisms once a quarter so it ain't too strict.

But I'm not Protestant anymore for a reason.
BiochemAg97
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The Banned said:

BiochemAg97 said:

The Banned said:

dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.


Agreed. It rolled over from a conversation on infant baptism and (paraphrasing) the poster said baptism doesn't do anything for you. Basically referencing the symbolism belief.

I was flipping that on it's head by asking what would you think if someone refused it. I think the consensus here is even if you don't believe it's salvific, it means something? Yes?


It means you are willing to do the things to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Basically if you are true in your beliefs, you would follow the teachings of Jesus, baptism, love your neighbor, help others, etc. If you say you believe, but refuse to follow the teachings, do you really believe?

Jesus was baptized and then the Holy Spirit descended upon him. For Catholics, the process is split. Infant baptism, followed by receiving the Holy Spirit when the individual affirms the choice to be a follower of Christ and a member of the Catholic Church.




That's what I find so interesting. Not to be glib, but it reads as follows:

1. Baptism doesn't really do anything for you. Just a symbol. Faith is all that matters.
2. But you have to do it or you're not a follower of Christ you don't have faith if you don't do it.

So baptism isn't essential for salvation but it is essential to be a Christian which is essential for salvation. Ergo, baptism is essential for salvation.

Obviously this leaves out the cases of people who died before being able to get baptized, etc.


Probably a little different than that.

1) Christ died for our sins. That is done. Salvation is available for everyone. But free will is important, so you can chose to accept or not.

2) is faith in Jesus Christ necessary to receive salvation? Probably not in this life, as there are many who have not heard the Gospel of Christ yet I find it hard to accept they are condemned simply because of the time and place of their life. On the other hand, having full knowledge of and rejecting the Gospel of Christ would be problematic and would seem to be choosing not to accept the gift of salvation. The is probably some debate about what constitutes "full knowledge" and "rejection".

As for the example of the OP, is that a rejection of Christ or simply a lack of knowledge. I'd assume lack of knowledge.

94chem
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dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.
While I agree with you, I was once a member of a hyperdispensationalist (also called Pauline Dispensationalist) church that did not believe that communion or water baptism were appropriate for today. These were some of the Godliest saints I have ever known, and they were generally accepting of other Christians as well. They just sincerely believed they were right. I will see them in heaven.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Jabin
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94chem said:

dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.
While I agree with you, I was once a member of a hyperdispensationalist (also called Pauline Dispensationalist) church that did not believe that communion or water baptism were appropriate for today. These were some of the Godliest saints I have ever known, and they were generally accepting of other Christians as well. They just sincerely believed they were right. I will see them in heaven.
Very interesting. I had never heard of that group and I thought I had heard of just about all of them. Out of curiosity, what is the basis of their belief that our current dispensation does not include communion or water baptism?
94chem
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Jabin said:

94chem said:

dermdoc said:

To be honest, I think it is a non issue. I can not think of anyone I know who became a Christian and was not baptized. Or was baptized at birth.

We need to stay united. Division is the work of Satan.
While I agree with you, I was once a member of a hyperdispensationalist (also called Pauline Dispensationalist) church that did not believe that communion or water baptism were appropriate for today. These were some of the Godliest saints I have ever known, and they were generally accepting of other Christians as well. They just sincerely believed they were right. I will see them in heaven.
Very interesting. I had never heard of that group and I thought I had heard of just about all of them. Out of curiosity, what is the basis of their belief that our current dispensation does not include communion or water baptism?
A lot of nuance and rabbit holes could be followed, but in the interest of time, here's a reasonable summary:

https://www.theopedia.com/hyper-dispensationalism
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Martin Q. Blank
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The Banned said:

*preface this by saying it's a spillover from a politics thread where infant baptism came up*

This is more a question for Protestants. Let's say I don't believe in any sacramental power of baptism and believe it's just a sign. Get baptized when you accept Jesus into your heart. If a friend says he's come to believe in Jesus and I say "great! Let's get you baptized", and he then says no he doesn't believe in that part, how would you respond?
What parts do you believe in?
DirtDiver
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The last time I did a study on baptism there were about 12 things a person could "be baptized" in, in the new testament.

False doctrines around baptism (in water).
1. It's required for salvation
2. It erases original sin.
3. It's the moment a person receives the Holy Spirit.
The Lone Stranger
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If someone asks, "Do I have to get water baptized now that I am a Christian?" I think something is very wrong. It's like someone asking, "Do I have to kiss my wife after we are married?" The question doesn't have an answer because the question indicates that something is very wrong. It's clearly something that is a matter of obedience and the clear pattern of a person after conversion.

Does baptism save you? No, but it does indicate a heart that has been converted and wants to follow in obedience to God.
The Lone Stranger
aggiedad20
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Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:36 - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Colossians 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
BusterAg
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AG
So, my CoC preacher taught about this this last Sunday. He made some good points.

If you asked a person about their confession: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? And their answer is emphatically no, and you dunk them anyways, would that person be saved?

I mean, I don't play judge, but, no. At least if they were telling the truth.

That said, you never see conversion without baptism. So, it is important and urgent. The confession, and the act of confession in the water, are important.

So, net / net, for this CoC, is that baptism is important and urgent, but it is not some special thing that changes you from unsaved to saved.

Just an FYI.
DirtDiver
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Quote:

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.


Interpretive option 1: baptism here refers to water baptism
Interpretive option 2: baptism here refers to being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit - How does one do this? by Teaching them all that I have commanded.



Quote:

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Observation 1: This portion of Mark is not in early manuscripts.
Interpretive Question: If a person believes and is baptized (in water? into the Spirit? Into Christ?) shall be saved.
IQ 2: Why doesn't say he that believeth not AND is NOT baptized is damned?


Quote:

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
IQ 1: Be baptized in the name or water?
Observation: People receive the Spirit prior to being baptized in Acts 9



Quote:

Acts 8:36 - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 22:16 - And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Is washing away sins connected to baptism or calling on the name of the Lord?

Romans 10:13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?


Quote:

Romans 6:3 - Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Baptized into Jesus and baptized into His death, not baptized in water.


Quote:

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Baptized into one body, not water.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5 - One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Colossians 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Quote:

1 Peter 3:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Bingo, specifically excludes water baptism.
Zobel
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AG
There is no way to separate baptism from baptism, to create two baptisms from one. You don't ever see the apostles doing this in the scripture. They baptize with water, every indication we have in church history from the beginning has Christians baptizing with water. People who have been baptized into Christ did so through the sacrament of baptism.

Your first "interpretive option" creates a false dichotomy where there is none. The simple answer is to baptize people (which means immerse) in the name of the Trinity.
AGC
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AG
Zobel said:

There is no way to separate baptism from baptism, to create two baptisms from one. You don't ever see the apostles doing this in the scripture. They baptize with water, every indication we have in church history from the beginning has Christians baptizing with water. People who have been baptized into Christ did so through the sacrament of baptism.

Your first "interpretive option" creates a false dichotomy where there is none. The simple answer is to baptize people (which means immerse) in the name of the Trinity.


Zobel: Gentlemen, we do not stop till nightfall.

Protestants: What about baptism?

Zobel: You've already had it.

Prots: We've had one, yes. What about spiritual baptism?

Other prots: Don't think he knows about spiritual baptism, Pip.

Prots: What about baby dedications? Age of accountability? The sinner's prayer? He knows about them, doesn't he?

Other prots: I wouldn't count on it.
Zobel
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AG
haha
DirtDiver
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Zobel said:

There is no way to separate baptism from baptism, to create two baptisms from one. You don't ever see the apostles doing this in the scripture. They baptize with water, every indication we have in church history from the beginning has Christians baptizing with water. People who have been baptized into Christ did so through the sacrament of baptism.

Your first "interpretive option" creates a false dichotomy where there is none. The simple answer is to baptize people (which means immerse) in the name of the Trinity.
One goal of Luke's gospel is to write a consecutive account.

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. Luke 1:1

Jesus was baptized by John in Luke 3. In Luke 12, Jesus says he has another baptism to go through.

Luke 12:49 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!

Is Jesus talking about a water baptism here?


Let's observe:

A baptism in Water
and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. Matt 3:6

A baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt. 3:11

A baptism in the name "can be water her, can also be a baptism in a name"
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

A baptism of Repentance
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

A baptism into Christ and baptism into His death (notice the distinctions)
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

Baptism in the name of Paul
Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Baptism into Moses, a cloud, and the sea
and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;


The term "illegitimate totality transfer" is a mistake in interpretation which assumes a word means the same every time it's used. People often assume "baptism" refers to water baptism every time it's used and as one can see above, this is not the case Biblically.

To clarify my position, once a person believes in Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit or are baptized (not by water) into Christ, His death, and resurrection, into the body of believers. One act of obedience after that point is to be baptized publicly (with water). Failure to be baptized in water doesn't mean one has not been baptized into Christ.
Zobel
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AG
I am not assuming that baptism can't be used metaphorically. I am saying that when the Lord or the Apostles talk about baptizing people into Christ they are talking about the Holy Mystery or sacrament of Baptism.

The clearest example of your mistake is already cited here - 1 Cor 1. If teaching people the Gospel and making disciples of them is "baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" then what St Paul says doesn't make any sense:

Quote:

What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
When St Paul talks about baptism into Moses he is linking the new with the old, the sign with the reality - in this case the imagery of going through the sea with the baptism of the Church.

Quote:

To clarify my position, once a person believes in Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit or are baptized (not by water) into Christ, His death, and resurrection, into the body of believers. One act of obedience after that point is to be baptized publicly (with water). Failure to be baptized in water doesn't mean one has not been baptized into Christ.
And yet nowhere can you point to this happening in the scripture. Belief is not baptism.

To be sure receiving the Holy Spirit does not have an identity relationship with baptism either. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not baptism.

Baptism is baptism. Hence the Ethiopian Eunuch asking St Philip - "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?" St Philip didn't say "haha silly you're already baptized, the water is just a symbol.
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