Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

Lots of people do.

TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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You're gonna have to give us a bit more here.

When you refer to original sin are you referencing the idea that everyone is born with the capacity to sin and a nature that encourages it?

Or is this a point of original sin = born sinful = born condemned to hell.

Or is this about the growing view among westerners that sin isn't a thing and that morality isn't absolute?

americathegreat1492 said:

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Define original sin.

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Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. Rom. 5:12

Because many religions, including 2/3 of the Abrahamic ones, do not adhere to the concept

TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

codker92 said:

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TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

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'not biblical' is a matter of interpretation scripture rather than scripture lacking support. Original sin is not Adams transferred but the consequence. Romans 5:19. Paul also taught this.

ETA: in Adam all have sinned…but in Christ all have life

BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

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'not biblical' is a matter of interpretation scripture rather than scripture lacking support. Original sin is not Adams transferred but the consequence. Romans 5:19. Paul also taught this.

ETA: in Adam all have sinned…but in Christ all have life

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You care to quote Romans 5:19 for me?

codker92 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

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'not biblical' is a matter of interpretation scripture rather than scripture lacking support. Original sin is not Adams transferred but the consequence. Romans 5:19. Paul also taught this.

ETA: in Adam all have sinned…but in Christ all have life

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You care to quote Romans 5:19 for me?

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You appear well versed so I'm assuming your talking about "through obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous". Obviously that's true but it doesn't negate that Adam brought sin into the world. If we do not accept Christ then we are condemned through one man's trespass (but not excluded our own). In a vacuum (living a sinless life), original sin is contracted by us, not committed. It's a state, not an act. Are we not all born sinners ? I concede that you seem to be a person who is committed to their views of scripture and thus nothing I state would cause you to deviate. It's rare anyone here would based on another's post. I'm just contributing to the discussion

codker92 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

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'not biblical' is a matter of interpretation scripture rather than scripture lacking support. Original sin is not Adams transferred but the consequence. Romans 5:19. Paul also taught this.

ETA: in Adam all have sinned…but in Christ all have life

---

You care to quote Romans 5:19 for me?

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Romans 5:19 isn't opposed to the idea Bluhorseshu discusses. Adam's sin is not our guilt, but we all feel the effects of that sin. We do not each get the chance to individually fall from the garden.

BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

---

Because, the doctrine of original sin is fundamentally flawed. It carries with it the idea that everyone also inherits the guilt of adam, which is not biblical and is fundamentally false.

Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, all things are put in subjection, it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:12-28

In verse 22, Adam's sin resulted in death, just like Romans says; it does not say that it resulted in GUILT. Along the same lines, because of Christ's resurrection in the flesh, all shall be raised. Death was conquered by Christ (Rom. 6:9) and Christ is the first fruits of the resurrection.

Wisdom of Solomon States "God created man for incorruption ... but death entered the world by the envy of the devil. 2:23-24.

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'not biblical' is a matter of interpretation scripture rather than scripture lacking support. Original sin is not Adams transferred but the consequence. Romans 5:19. Paul also taught this.

ETA: in Adam all have sinned…but in Christ all have life

---

You care to quote Romans 5:19 for me?

---

You appear well versed so I'm assuming your talking about "through obedience of one man, the many will be made righteous". Obviously that's true but it doesn't negate that Adam brought sin into the world. If we do not accept Christ then we are condemned through one man's trespass (but not excluded our own). In a vacuum (living a sinless life), original sin is contracted by us, not committed. It's a state, not an act. Are we not all born sinners ? I concede that you seem to be a person who is committed to their views of scripture and thus nothing I state would cause you to deviate. It's rare anyone here would based on another's post. I'm just contributing to the discussion

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I guess I would like to state that I believe the devil, and not Adam brought the original sin into the world. However, I do believe sin did bring Adam out of the garden, and into the world. That being said, I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter. It would seem that the Angel may redeem men from all evil, the product of said evil being sin. Genesis 48:16.

Quote:

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I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

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Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

TrailerTrash said:

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Why do people no longer believe in original sin?

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Who doesn't believe in original sin? I don't. I don't believe that we have to carry the sins. I also don't believe that Jesus died for our sins. Jesus died because he carried a message so awesome and true that he was willing to die for it. He led us to a new understanding.

Missing from this thread: a distinction between Sin and sins.

DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

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Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

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Salvation comes to those whose names are written in the book of life. Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:11-25. In Daniel 7:9-11 it is described as follows:

9 "As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
11 I looked then because of the sound of
the great words that the horn was speaking.
And as I looked the beast was killed, and its
body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

codker92 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

---

Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

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Salvation comes to those whose names are written in the book of life. Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:11-25. In Daniel 7:9-11 it is described as follows:

9 "As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
11 I looked then because of the sound of
the great words that the horn was speaking.
And as I looked the beast was killed, and its
body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

---

Yikes…So the touchstone John 3:16 has been interpreted incorrectly for 2000 years?

BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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DirtDiver said:

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Quote:

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I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

---

Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

---

Salvation comes to those whose names are written in the book of life. Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:11-25. In Daniel 7:9-11 it is described as follows:

9 "As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
11 I looked then because of the sound of
the great words that the horn was speaking.
And as I looked the beast was killed, and its
body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

---

Yikes…So the touchstone John 3:16 has been interpreted incorrectly for 2000 years?

---

Tell me how people were saved before the Christ was revealed and I will tell you how God sent His Son more than once to the earth. You believe that God only sent His Son to this earth once? What I am getting at is you are reading John 3:16 with the incorrect assumption that God sent His Son only once to this earth.

codker92 said:

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BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

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DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

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I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

---

Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

---

Salvation comes to those whose names are written in the book of life. Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:11-25. In Daniel 7:9-11 it is described as follows:

9 "As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
11 I looked then because of the sound of
the great words that the horn was speaking.
And as I looked the beast was killed, and its
body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

---

Yikes…So the touchstone John 3:16 has been interpreted incorrectly for 2000 years?

---

Tell me how people were saved before the Christ was revealed and I will tell you how God sent His Son more than once to the earth. You believe that God only sent His Son to this earth once? What I am getting at is you are reading John 3:16 with the incorrect assumption that God sent His Son only once to this earth.

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For
Those before Christ, God sent his prophets. Faith in and keeping Gods word made those righteous but salvation wasn't achieved until Christ died. Until then they were in "the bosom of Abraham". Christ is one with God but I'm not understanding your contention that Christ , as the only begotten Son, came more than once. Wait…Are you LDS?

BluHorseShu said:

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codker92 said:

---

BluHorseShu said:

---

codker92 said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

I do not believe any faith in Christ is necessary for resurrections or for salvation for that matter

---

Do you believe in any salvation? If so, explain.

---

Salvation comes to those whose names are written in the book of life. Isaiah 4:3; Ezekiel 9; Daniel 12:1; Revelation 20:11-25. In Daniel 7:9-11 it is described as follows:

9 "As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.
11 I looked then because of the sound of
the great words that the horn was speaking.
And as I looked the beast was killed, and its
body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

---

Yikes…So the touchstone John 3:16 has been interpreted incorrectly for 2000 years?

---

Tell me how people were saved before the Christ was revealed and I will tell you how God sent His Son more than once to the earth. You believe that God only sent His Son to this earth once? What I am getting at is you are reading John 3:16 with the incorrect assumption that God sent His Son only once to this earth.

---

For
Those before Christ, God sent his prophets. Faith in and keeping Gods word made those righteous but salvation wasn't achieved until Christ died. Until then they were in "the bosom of Abraham". Christ is one with God but I'm not understanding your contention that Christ , as the only begotten Son, came more than once. Wait…Are you LDS?

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I am not LDS. How did the prophets know what to say? Did God just beam it into their heads? Who appeared to Ezekiel by the River Kebar? Who lead the army before Joshua? Who lead Israel through the wilderness? Who bore the Name of the Lord before 0AD?

Is the original sin concept more about the individual or humanity as a whole? Is it supposed to invoke guilt?

To the person saying toddlers don't need to be taught to disobey- they act that way because they have little control over their lives, can't communicate, and have the most energy of their lives. That's just how they are.

Psalms 51:5 and Romans 5:12 put it all in perspective!! We are all born sinners!! However, there is an age of accountability, and it differs per individual.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL people.

Praise the Lord! Gospel means good news for ALL people.

Zobel said:

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I note you didn't cite scripture for the latter part.

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Kind of like the sinner's prayer and the altar call.

Zobel said:

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I note you didn't cite scripture for the latter part.

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I'd say Matthew 19:14....and what I mean is let's say a two day old child passes away, as opposed to a 12 year old who has had repeated opportunities to accept Christ but refused.....they are not the same!!

dermdoc said:

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Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL people.

Praise the Lord! Gospel means good news for ALL people.

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Not my actual take:

The Christian God sounds like he has anger management problems. He got so mad at the first two humans he made for not following directions that he decided to take it out on every single one of their descendants? Brah….take a chill pill.

The whole idea of age of accountability is invented in whole cloth to deal with some of the knock-on problems brought on by an individualistic view of salvation. It is nowhere in the scriptures or in the tradition of the church.

I don't agree with the general thrust of your point but the bottom line is Christ is merciful and just, and loves all men and all mankind. And that is as true of little children as it is of adults.

Zobel said:

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The whole idea of age of accountability is invented in whole cloth to deal with some of the knock-on problems brought on by an individualistic view of salvation. It is nowhere in the scriptures or in the tradition of the church.

I don't agree with the general thrust of your point but the bottom line is Christ is merciful and just, and loves all men and all mankind. And that is as true of little children as it is of adults.

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I guess I don't comprehend by "knock on problems brought on by an individualistic view of salvation"? Are you saying salvation is not an individual decision? Yes, Christ is merciful and just, and loves all mankind, but one is either covered by the blood of the lamb or not, and each of us will be held accountable for that decision or lack there of!

If it is an individual decision and each is held accountable for that decision what about that two day old child? That's exactly the point. You have to invent an exception for that child to accommodate your theory

americathegreat1492 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL people.

Praise the Lord! Gospel means good news for ALL people.

---

Not my actual take:

The Christian God sounds like he has anger management problems. He got so mad at the first two humans he made for not following directions that he decided to take it out on every single one of their descendants? Brah….take a chill pill.

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I disagree. He always knew what it would lead to, which is him sending his only Son to die for us. This has lead to the current world where we have the free will to follow God or not. We will always fall short but should strive to live our life as Christ did. We would never be able to say that without him coming into this world.

That God with anger management issues, as you put it, allowed his son to die for me and you.

They are fools. The only correct answer.