Are you trying to suggest this as an argument against the existence of god? Because it's a pretty poorly conceived one, in my opinion. And I say that as an atheist. I suppose it would work as an argument against deities with a very specific set of characteristics where ideas of fairness and justice are concerned, but I don't think any of the gods of the major world religions really fit that description.

FAT SEXY said:

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Why would a "fair and just God" have his creation be so unequal?

Why do some people hit the genetic lottery and have a life seemingly on easy mode, while others are thrust into this world with learning defects and little to no familial support?

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If we look to the world without God we see not only is does suffering still exist but that the end result is a world that kills those who suffer (specifically western culture which embraces abortion and euthanasia). Surely God's world where suffering is overcome is better than one where murder is the answer.

Quote:

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Why do some people hit the genetic lottery and have a life seemingly on easy mode, while others are thrust into this world with learning defects and little to no familial support?

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One cannot judge the goodness/fairness of God using what knowledge we have. Our mortal existence is extremely short compared to eternity.

That said, if one rejects the entire concept of afterlife/eternity/etc, then I can sympathize with your stance.

Life is fair. The world is perfect. You may not like it or accept it, but it's perfect just the way it is. Life is suffering. The Buddha was right.

How is God just and fair?

Also consider how justice is determined without the existence of God. It's a human construct. If humans and human thought are a product of a godless creation of random atoms colliding, why would we trust our ability to reason?

Without God, who determines a Just standard? Is it the woman's rights to chose to abort a baby or the babies right to live?

What about those who never get caught in moral crimes and die more peacefully than someone we would consider righteous?

Wouldn't be odd to live in a world with a value of justice when no objective value is possible or exists?

I think the sense of justice and the frustration of injustice that we have points us more to the existence of God calls His existence into question. We either life up our eyes and shake our fist at Him or humble agree that the world is broken because of our sin, and we thank Him for the day where is lifts the curse.

What is justice?

Luke 12:48 ...Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Don't be so fast to say that people blessed with riches, beauty, fame or success are in a better position than those without. As the Bible says, such people are expected to use all of those blessings to help others and make the world better. The weight of judgement is worst on people like that.

Also, the person who mentioned Buddha has a point. Suffering is an integral part of existence, as much for "blessed people" as much as anyone else. Just listen to the life stories of some child stars, models/starlets, professional athletes and lottery winners. People with fame, money, beauty, and power are constantly targets of people who either want to use them, abuse them or replace them. There are no absolute positives in life. Every good thing comes with a price and a responsibility.

Your define fair according to worldly possessions and genetic makeup? Why would you ask this question to people who value eternal life more? I don't even get your line of thinking.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Luke 12:48 ...Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Don't be so fast to say that people blessed with riches, beauty, fame or success are in a better position than those without. As the Bible says, such people are expected to use all of those blessings to help others and make the world better. The weight of judgement is worst on people like that.

Also, the person who mentioned Buddha has a point. Suffering is an integral part of existence, as much for "blessed people" as much as anyone else. Just listen to the life stories of some child stars, models/starlets, professional athletes and lottery winners. People with fame, money, beauty, and power are constantly targets of people who either want to use them, abuse them or replace them. There are no absolute positives in life. Every good thing comes with a price and a responsibility.

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You're exactly right. Riches means somebody I can steal it. Fears from loss of fame, honor and fortune. Everything comes with its cost. Until people can learn to accept, they won't be happy with all the money or no money (there are those that think the virtue of having nothing brings happiness - they too miss the point I think).

Peace will never be found through the external and form.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Luke 12:48 ...Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Don't be so fast to say that people blessed with riches, beauty, fame or success are in a better position than those without. As the Bible says, such people are expected to use all of those blessings to help others and make the world better. The weight of judgement is worst on people like that.

Also, the person who mentioned Buddha has a point. Suffering is an integral part of existence, as much for "blessed people" as much as anyone else. Just listen to the life stories of some child stars, models/starlets, professional athletes and lottery winners. People with fame, money, beauty, and power are constantly targets of people who either want to use them, abuse them or replace them. There are no absolute positives in life. Every good thing comes with a price and a responsibility.

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Too further add to that point:

Matthew 19:24

"24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Wealth. Fame. Power. It's not all it's cracked up to be. That one of Satan's great lies. Furthermore, it is all stuff you can't take with you to the place we are meant to be.

"8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."

10 Then Jesus said to him, [b]"Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' "

nortex97 said:

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What is justice?

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In a worldview with no God, there's no such thing. It's whatever we decide in the moment to do and there there's no reason we cannot change that definition in the next moment, and revert back and forth.

In God's eyes, I think the context of these passages give us clues on how to define it.

"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him." Genesis 18:19

"You shall not bear a false report; do not join your hand with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. 2 You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to

"He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. pervert justice; 3 nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his dispute.

"You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial , and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.


In my own words, to make decisions in conflicts and to make decisions on how we treat others in a way that is an agreement with God's standards and desires.

But that's not responsive to the op's question, which is why God allowed for an unequal creation. This in itself presupposes that equality would be fair and that this is good/what God should have wanted.

But why? Wouldn't it be reasonable for God to have 'favorites' as Roman Catholics would be inclined to agree such as with Mary?

Job and Ecclesiastes explain why life isn't fair very well. And they happen to be my two favorite books of the Bible.

Job? LOL, I don't know that it really 'explains' anything, actually.

Ecclesiastes, absolutely.

nortex97 said:

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Job? LOL, I don't know that it really 'explains' anything, actually.

Ecclesiastes, absolutely.

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Righteous Job loses everything and keeps his faith in God even though his friends try to talk him out it.

Very unfair but he keeps his faith.

'Unfair' sure, I just don't think the writer/narrator in Job does any actual explaining.

nortex97 said:

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'Unfair' sure, I just don't think the writer/narrator in Job does any actual explaining.

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In Job 38:4, God directly explains to Job why injustice exists:

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

We struggle to find our own plan in life; As such, we are incapable of discovering Gods plan for all of His creation. The best explanation I have ever heard on the matter is from Bishop Robert Barron (I'm struggling to find the youtube clip at the moment but will add it if I can find it). He gives two examples"

The first is a memory he had as a boy when he took his dog to the vet. He recalls his dog looking up at him scarred and upset when the doctor gave the dog a shot. He tried to comfort his dog but he understood that the dog couldn't understand that pain of the shot was to protect him and strengthen him for the future. Likewise, when we experience pain, we often lack the insight as to it's purpose.

The more beautiful example he gives occurred when he was a priest. In the front pew at Mass, a family with a severely disabled daughter would often sit. At times during the mass, she would cry out in pain and he was always impressed with her brother's ability to comfort her. He recalls thinking of the "injustice" of the child's medical condition but then realized "where was I when God laid the foundations of the Earth". How was he to know if perhaps the compassion that this boy had developed would be passed to his own child in the future and then to his child's children. Perhaps one of those children would use that compassion that was passed down and become a future saint that would serve as an example of Christ love and compassion for a future generation.

nortex97 said:

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But that's not responsive to the op's question, which is why God allowed for an unequal creation. This in itself presupposes that equality would be fair and that this is good/what God should have wanted.

But why? Wouldn't it be reasonable for God to have 'favorites' as Roman Catholics would be inclined to agree such as with Mary?

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To tackle this I think there are a few questions to ask that we may not have answered to:

1. Was creation "unequal" in the beginning? Doesn't seem so
2. Is the "unequal" creation a result of the fall and cursed humanity? May very well be

We do know that God has allows inequality to exist (as humans define equality) in the same way He allows for pain, suffering, death, and sin to exist for a time.

I think we need also need to consider the differences between equality in the eyes of God vs human equality. We may view someone as being financially advantaged over another person however they could be morally depraved in the eyes of God as they accumulated that wealth by taking advantage of others.

Someone may be physically advantaged over another person and yet my use that advantage to commit immoral acts, while another person may be a quadriplegic and have a faithful relationship with God.

Our life on earth is but a breath. Does God make up for wrongs suffered in this life in eternity?

An example of God's sense of justice is the parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16). God sees how it all should be, not what man sees. One can take from this, that God sees past the current state of person (health, financial status, etc.) and sees how it all should be.

When it came time to pay, the last were paid a full day's wage, even though they only worked a portion. The workers who worked all day, were upset to only receive a full day's wage - yet this was what they had agreed to do. In the end, man tends to only see a narrow aspect of life.

ETA: Someone had asked earlier for the OP to define "fair" - I would look to God's definition.

FAT SEXY said:

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Why would a "fair and just God" have his creation be so unequal?

Why do some people hit the genetic lottery and have a life seemingly on easy mode, while others are thrust into this world with learning defects and little to no familial support?

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It's not about our short time on Earth. It's about eternity. If we were all perfect and "equal" why would anyone turn to God?

Appreciate the response. Good points/take.

DirtDiver said:

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nortex97 said:

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But that's not responsive to the op's question, which is why God allowed for an unequal creation. This in itself presupposes that equality would be fair and that this is good/what God should have wanted.

But why? Wouldn't it be reasonable for God to have 'favorites' as Roman Catholics would be inclined to agree such as with Mary?

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To tackle this I think there are a few questions to ask that we may not have answered to:

1. Was creation "unequal" in the beginning? Doesn't seem so
2. Is the "unequal" creation a result of the fall and cursed humanity? May very well be

We do know that God has allows inequality to exist (as humans define equality) in the same way He allows for pain, suffering, death, and sin to exist for a time.

I think we need also need to consider the differences between equality in the eyes of God vs human equality. We may view someone as being financially advantaged over another person however they could be morally depraved in the eyes of God as they accumulated that wealth by taking advantage of others.

Someone may be physically advantaged over another person and yet my use that advantage to commit immoral acts, while another person may be a quadriplegic and have a faithful relationship with God.

Our life on earth is but a breath. Does God make up for wrongs suffered in this life in eternity?

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Do we? God has chosen some very colorful/flawed messengers, of course, of his Word. His 'favorites' such as Mary would, it seem, to have endured great heartache/suffering in their lives. God doesn't really make equality of opportunity, status, or success a theme of His book.

I don't think God 'makes up' for anything, or owes me for instance anything. Some things, it would seem, in this creation could be 'fixed' but are not, to alleviate suffering. It's a mystery to me.

because suffering is salvific.

Rocag said:

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Are you trying to suggest this as an argument against the existence of god? Because it's a pretty poorly conceived one, in my opinion. And I say that as an atheist. I suppose it would work as an argument against deities with a very specific set of characteristics where ideas of fairness and justice are concerned, but I don't think any of the gods of the major world religions really fit that description.

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I don't think the "life isn't fair" argument has much bearing on the existence of god. It's a simple fact of life the vast majority of people have accepted.

Where I get skeptical is well beyond that. Some people are born into prosperity and have prosperous lives without doing much to earn it. Others are born into poor and destitute conditions and live a life of poverty and die early. That's an unfortunate harsh truth about the unfairness of life. Ok. But when you examine history and the reality of the world today, the world is a dark, ****ed up, sad place.

I take issue with the line that "God has a great divine plan" because it's completely incompatible with reality. When something absolutely horrific and unimaginable happens, "God has a plan" is not reassuring or comforting at all. When I heard that growing up in the back of my head I interpreted that as meaning he has a plan for some people and not much of a plan for others, regardless if the person was a righteous Christian or not.

It's way more satisfying and believable that the world is a very dark place and life is just kinda random. Bad things happen. Oftentimes to good people. We're on our own and we need to be in this together and look out for one another, and make the world a better place.

larry culpepper said:

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Rocag said:

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Are you trying to suggest this as an argument against the existence of god? Because it's a pretty poorly conceived one, in my opinion. And I say that as an atheist. I suppose it would work as an argument against deities with a very specific set of characteristics where ideas of fairness and justice are concerned, but I don't think any of the gods of the major world religions really fit that description.

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I don't think the "life isn't fair" argument has much bearing on the existence of god. It's a simple fact of life the vast majority of people have accepted.

Where I get skeptical is well beyond that. Some people are born into prosperity and have prosperous lives without doing much to earn it. Others are born into poor and destitute conditions and live a life of poverty and die early. That's an unfortunate harsh truth about the unfairness of life. Ok. But when you examine history and the reality of the world today, the world is a dark, ****ed up, sad place.

I take issue with the line that "God has a great divine plan" because it's completely incompatible with reality. When something absolutely horrific and unimaginable happens, "God has a plan" is not reassuring or comforting at all. When I heard that growing up in the back of my head I interpreted that as meaning he has a plan for some people and not much of a plan for others, regardless if the person was a righteous Christian or not.

It's way more satisfying and believable that the world is a very dark place and life is just kinda random. Bad things happen. Oftentimes to good people. We're on our own and we need to be in this together and look out for one another, and make the world a better place.

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Agree if there is no resurrection and eternal life.

Paul even said if that was the case that Christians were the biggest fools alive.

It is fascinating that the skeptic's points of argument never change.

"It is fascinating that the skeptic's points of argument never change."

Why would they if the point is never addressed or accounted for in a satisfactory way?

Aggrad08 said:

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"It is fascinating that the skeptic's points of argument never change."

Why would they if the point is never addressed or accounted for in a satisfactory way?

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Faith is not about being satisfactory.

And as Paul said, if Jesus is not who I think he is, then I am a fool.