Absolute Nothing

2,650 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Sapper Redux
The Banned
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To distract from the LGBT threads, why not a rookie thread? Been lurking for several years and decided to wade in here because of the fact that (most) posters here seem to actually engage the question rather than attempting mike drop-esque one liners that don't help at all.

I've spent plenty of time in my Christian echo chamber, so I'm not really looking for any Christian input on this. I know, and likely agree, with basically anything you will say. However, from my experience, we like to talk about how much we know and rarely ask good questions. Not saying that is this board, but it is my personal experience. Of course, it's not my message board, so any Christians can obviously pound away at the keyboard.

What I am looking for is meaningful dialogue with atheists and agnostics that actually put some effort into it. For everyone of you that feel every Christian you've met that just going along with what they learned as a kid, I feel like every nonbeliever I've met has given up even trying to resolve the question of what it all means. This is not a large group of people and in no way represents the whole, I'm sure.

I've been impressed with the sincerity most atheists/agnostics here believe what they believe and are willing to back it up rather than resort to name calling. That is why I hope this thread can be an opportunity for me to ask questions and present absolutely zero (see what I did there?) arguments for the existence of God, much less the God of the Bible. I promise not to try and backdoor you with an unchanged changer/unmoved mover argument. Instead, I just want to ask questions and learn what the best current explanations are from the other side. I have absolutely zero personal friends that are up for this, most of the internet is toxic (Reddit), and approaching this from a purely scientific journal perspective has been fruitless, as most of the physics/astrophysics articles I've read are wholesale disinterested in the unmeasurable (Not to mention using scientific concepts beyond my education). If, at any point in this thread I attempt to use an argument for God, I will consider it a fail on my part. I genuinely just want to ask questions.

With that all out of the way, I'm interested in how an atheist or agnostic would best answer the question of how any thing whatsoever (much less the entire universe) could spawn out of absolute nothing. First, my understanding of absolute nothing:

1. Absolute nothing is not an empty vacuum, because an empty vacuum is still a container (thing)

2. Absolute nothing is not a point in time in which an empty vacuum didn't even exist yet, because time is still a thing (measurable)

3. Absolute nothing is not the plane of existence that lacks time and lacks a space/vacuum in which somehow the most basic laws of physics do exist. These laws of any degree are still a thing.

4. Absolute nothing is not a plane of existence in which time/space/laws will potentially come to be, because a plane of existence is still a thing.

Absolute nothing is exactly that: nothing whatsoever. Not emptiness. Not the "before". True and utter lack of existence or potential for existence of any kind. Before answering my real questions, feel free to rip apart this definition of absolute nothing. Like I said, long echo chamber history here so don't hold back. Now for the real question, parts A and B:

A. If absolute nothing "existed" at some point prior to all of this, how is it in anyway possible that something came to be? What are the scientific hopes/studies that show how the first atom/law of physics/plane of existence could have come to exist out of such nothingness?

B. If absolute nothing never "existed", would you consider yourself a believer in eternity/infinity?
Aggrad08
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AG
I've never met anyone that believed absolutely nothing ever existed. Something from truly nothing makes no sense.

When you hear some physicists speak of something from nothing, the nothing they refer to is totally empty space, but there are still some basic operations and laws of the universe at play.

Regardless I do think you need something that just is. You end up with hopeless why questions-like why does god exist or why does this eternal facet of a universe or multiverse or whatever exists. And the only real answer I suspect there can be is it just does.

So no people try to fill in that why question besides to say they must exist for existence, in an anthropic sense.

But people do try to fill in the why of the universe or our own existence- the only halfway decent answer I've ever heard is I don't know. The rest has been worse than admitted ignorance.

Sb1540
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I know you don't want Christian input but you should know that your echo chamber is more than likely not original Christian thought. Unless your spending time with Orthodox theology then you really don't have much to compare against the atheist/materialist since the thought of the materialists you're engaging with originates from the western worldview that you come from.

The issue at hand is spiritual delusion, not an intellectual assent.
Quad Dog
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AG
Be wary of anyone claiming to have answers to any of these types of questions.
Have the guts to say "We don't know, yet"

My best guess would be that anything that came before our current universe would be so vastly different (super compressed space time or whatever) that there would be no point in trying to describe it or measure it.
Dilettante
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I agree with aggrad, nobody claims the world came from any kind of null state.
The Banned
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Thanks for this. So my next question would be, is there a desire to know this from an atheist perspective? Are there any well known atheists/agnostics that are trying to argue how or why something would just exist? I can understand "We don't know", even if I don't fully agree. I don't think I could ever get on board with "we can't know". What is the more prevailing thought?
Dilettante
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I think a lot of people would like to know. But it's intractable.
I Sold DeSantis Lifts
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Who knows? You think you know, but do you really? I'm open to all peoples' beliefs - their supernatural beliefs are as equally made up as anything that I believe, but people who are certain in matters like this lose all credibility in my eyes.

I have incredible difficulty putting these things into words - perhaps that's why people like Alan Watts are so remarkable.

We tend to think of nothing as nothing, but could there ever be nothing? In order to have nothing, don't you need something? Just like an object cannot exist without space, space cannot exist without an object. Or if space did or does exist without a something, what's the point? There's no reference. So to say that it all came from nothing cannot be right - something cannot come from nothing.

Also, we tend to believe in linear time due to the way our brains are wired, but why does time have to start when nothing went to something...and where did that something come from? Is our universe/existence the something in an otherwise larger nothing ?

I am rambling and likely not making a turd of sense. This stuff is too difficult.
kurt vonnegut
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The Banned said:

Thanks for this. So my next question would be, is there a desire to know this from an atheist perspective? Are there any well known atheists/agnostics that are trying to argue how or why something would just exist? I can understand "We don't know", even if I don't fully agree. I don't think I could ever get on board with "we can't know". What is the more prevailing thought?

I think there are plenty of people that would like to know. As far as known atheists trying to argue a 'Universe from Nothing', Lawrence Krauss comes to mind. The argument is a more nuanced than the simple title suggests and I won't pretend to be an expert in the subject matter. The video hardly serves as 'evidence' of a universe from nothing and I don't think that Krauss presents it that way, but its an interesting watch.
Lawrence Krauss - Universe from Nothing

Admittedly, not knowing can be uncomfortable, but we all deal with not knowing and uncertainly all the time. In our personal lives, professional lives, in world events, politics, economics. Not knowing doesn't have to be equivalent to being paralyzed into inaction. Hopefully, I'm not misreading the intention in your post, but reading it makes me think of the old Sagan line about embracing hard truth rather than reassuring fable.

I don't know if we can't know or if we just currently don't know. I don't think that either scenario really affects our day to day.
Beer Baron
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AG

Quote:

So my next question would be, is there a desire to know this from an atheist perspective?
Of course. When I was being raised in religion one of the coolest aspects of it was the idea that after I died I might actually get answers to all kinds of questions that we'll never be able to answer. That was probably one of the hardest things to let go of when I realized I didn't believe any of the rest of it.
AzAg80
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AG
I don't think we as humans are equipped to discern the answers to the "big questions" like this. Everything in our experience is grounded in causality. A universe that instantly came into existence in a Big Bang violates our sense of causality. A God (or universe) that has always existed going back into the "infinite past" also violates our sense of causality. But, aside from either something always existing, or something coming from nothing, there don't seem to be any other plausible explanations for our existence. And yet, here we are...???

kurt vonnegut
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AG
NoahAg
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Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.
Let's go, Brandon!
Dilettante
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Other than those first two sentences I think you're spot on.
The Banned
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So if the nature (material, laws, forces, etc) we observe shouldn't be eternal (meaning all of the parts of the sum are finite so how could the sum itself be infinite), and if the nature we observe can't come from nothing, would that mean agnostics and atheists believe in the supernatural? Not necessarily God or spirits or whatever. But if it can't be explained by the rules/laws of nature themselves, isn't it supernatural by definition? Something above or outside of nature is required, no? Or is the belief that nature just has a way of breaking its own rules sufficient? Not trying to argue the God of the gaps here. We can still agree that we have no idea what happened. But it has to be supernatural in some form, yes?

This is likely where my line of questioning will end, because I think apologetics are coming next and I promised to stay out of that. That can be for another thread.
Star Wars Memes Only
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NoahAg said:

Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.


Conclusion: Either the creator was created or the creator doesn't exist.
Sapper Redux
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NoahAg said:

Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.



Way to anthropomorphize all of existence.
PabloSerna
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AG
DizzyStarship said:

NoahAg said:

Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.


Conclusion: Either the creator was created or the creator doesn't exist.
There is a third option on that... Creator is the uncreated, prime mover.

Star Wars Memes Only
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PabloSerna said:

DizzyStarship said:

NoahAg said:

Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.


Conclusion: Either the creator was created or the creator doesn't exist.
There is a third option on that... Creator is the uncreated, prime mover.


Violates premise 1.
PabloSerna
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AG
go on...
Star Wars Memes Only
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There's nothing to go on about. The first premise states that everything that exists has to have been created. Your posit is essentially that the premise is wrong. That's fine, but my point was really just to take that premise to its logical conclusion, because I'm almost certain that's not what he means to imply.
PabloSerna
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AG
I guess we need to understand what is meant by "exist" then?

Star Wars Memes Only
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PabloSerna said:

I guess we need to understand what is meant by "exist" then?



Sure, I'm all for defining God out of existence.
PabloSerna
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AG
Who is this "God" you speak of?
Star Wars Memes Only
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PabloSerna said:

Who is this "God" you speak of?
Aggie_Swag18
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No. Saying that you're not arguing god of the gaps, then saying because you don't know it must be supernatural is the same thing. 1000 years ago the idea of splitting an atom to release energy would have been considered supernatural.
Any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still know where his towel is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.
Aggie_Swag18
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user name checks out.
AzAg80
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AG
NoahAg said:

Everything that exists must have been created.
Everything that was created must have had a creator.

So, who created the creator?
kurt vonnegut
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AG
Never mind. . . It's been said and I don't want to pile on.

The Banned
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Hence the reason I'm trying to use the definition of supernatural, not the angels and demons view of it. It's also the reason why I've been trying to dig into can something come from absolute nothing or is it eternal. I think we've come to an agreement-ish that both of these defy the laws of nature. I don't think it's an absence of knowledge about how nature works (ie we didn't even know what an atom is 1000 years ago). It's beyond nature, by definition. Unless you are positing that science will one day be able to measure something that is unmeasurable by definition.

I tried to ask these questions along the way because I'm genuinely curious about how there can be an answer outside of nature itself. Whether that is God or something else entirely, I have not hypothesized. It can be science of the gaps for all I care in this thread. I'm seeking understanding through questions, not trying to trick you into accepting God.
Dilettante
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How do you define natural and supernatural? I've always had trouble separating things into those categories in a non-arbitrary way. I don't think atheists really divide things into those categories.
Sapper Redux
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The Banned said:

Hence the reason I'm trying to use the definition of supernatural, not the angels and demons view of it. It's also the reason why I've been trying to dig into can something come from absolute nothing or is it eternal. I think we've come to an agreement-ish that both of these defy the laws of nature. I don't think it's an absence of knowledge about how nature works (ie we didn't even know what an atom is 1000 years ago). It's beyond nature, by definition. Unless you are positing that science will one day be able to measure something that is unmeasurable by definition.

I tried to ask these questions along the way because I'm genuinely curious about how there can be an answer outside of nature itself. Whether that is God or something else entirely, I have not hypothesized. It can be science of the gaps for all I care in this thread. I'm seeking understanding through questions, not trying to trick you into accepting God.
We're limited by our senses and our brains to what we can possibly understand and grasp. For example, we know numbers like 1 billion exist. But our brains can't actually conceive of how large that is. We lose the ability to truly grasp the size of numbers over a few thousand. In other words, we assume the line is "existence" or "absolute nothing." We assume that because that's our sensory experience in this universe. All we can know is what is contained in the universe. Beyond that, it's all a guess using our limited capacities.
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