To distract from the LGBT threads, why not a rookie thread? Been lurking for several years and decided to wade in here because of the fact that (most) posters here seem to actually engage the question rather than attempting mike drop-esque one liners that don't help at all.
I've spent plenty of time in my Christian echo chamber, so I'm not really looking for any Christian input on this. I know, and likely agree, with basically anything you will say. However, from my experience, we like to talk about how much we know and rarely ask good questions. Not saying that is this board, but it is my personal experience. Of course, it's not my message board, so any Christians can obviously pound away at the keyboard.
What I am looking for is meaningful dialogue with atheists and agnostics that actually put some effort into it. For everyone of you that feel every Christian you've met that just going along with what they learned as a kid, I feel like every nonbeliever I've met has given up even trying to resolve the question of what it all means. This is not a large group of people and in no way represents the whole, I'm sure.
I've been impressed with the sincerity most atheists/agnostics here believe what they believe and are willing to back it up rather than resort to name calling. That is why I hope this thread can be an opportunity for me to ask questions and present absolutely zero (see what I did there?) arguments for the existence of God, much less the God of the Bible. I promise not to try and backdoor you with an unchanged changer/unmoved mover argument. Instead, I just want to ask questions and learn what the best current explanations are from the other side. I have absolutely zero personal friends that are up for this, most of the internet is toxic (Reddit), and approaching this from a purely scientific journal perspective has been fruitless, as most of the physics/astrophysics articles I've read are wholesale disinterested in the unmeasurable (Not to mention using scientific concepts beyond my education). If, at any point in this thread I attempt to use an argument for God, I will consider it a fail on my part. I genuinely just want to ask questions.
With that all out of the way, I'm interested in how an atheist or agnostic would best answer the question of how any thing whatsoever (much less the entire universe) could spawn out of absolute nothing. First, my understanding of absolute nothing:
1. Absolute nothing is not an empty vacuum, because an empty vacuum is still a container (thing)
2. Absolute nothing is not a point in time in which an empty vacuum didn't even exist yet, because time is still a thing (measurable)
3. Absolute nothing is not the plane of existence that lacks time and lacks a space/vacuum in which somehow the most basic laws of physics do exist. These laws of any degree are still a thing.
4. Absolute nothing is not a plane of existence in which time/space/laws will potentially come to be, because a plane of existence is still a thing.
Absolute nothing is exactly that: nothing whatsoever. Not emptiness. Not the "before". True and utter lack of existence or potential for existence of any kind. Before answering my real questions, feel free to rip apart this definition of absolute nothing. Like I said, long echo chamber history here so don't hold back. Now for the real question, parts A and B:
A. If absolute nothing "existed" at some point prior to all of this, how is it in anyway possible that something came to be? What are the scientific hopes/studies that show how the first atom/law of physics/plane of existence could have come to exist out of such nothingness?
B. If absolute nothing never "existed", would you consider yourself a believer in eternity/infinity?
I've spent plenty of time in my Christian echo chamber, so I'm not really looking for any Christian input on this. I know, and likely agree, with basically anything you will say. However, from my experience, we like to talk about how much we know and rarely ask good questions. Not saying that is this board, but it is my personal experience. Of course, it's not my message board, so any Christians can obviously pound away at the keyboard.
What I am looking for is meaningful dialogue with atheists and agnostics that actually put some effort into it. For everyone of you that feel every Christian you've met that just going along with what they learned as a kid, I feel like every nonbeliever I've met has given up even trying to resolve the question of what it all means. This is not a large group of people and in no way represents the whole, I'm sure.
I've been impressed with the sincerity most atheists/agnostics here believe what they believe and are willing to back it up rather than resort to name calling. That is why I hope this thread can be an opportunity for me to ask questions and present absolutely zero (see what I did there?) arguments for the existence of God, much less the God of the Bible. I promise not to try and backdoor you with an unchanged changer/unmoved mover argument. Instead, I just want to ask questions and learn what the best current explanations are from the other side. I have absolutely zero personal friends that are up for this, most of the internet is toxic (Reddit), and approaching this from a purely scientific journal perspective has been fruitless, as most of the physics/astrophysics articles I've read are wholesale disinterested in the unmeasurable (Not to mention using scientific concepts beyond my education). If, at any point in this thread I attempt to use an argument for God, I will consider it a fail on my part. I genuinely just want to ask questions.
With that all out of the way, I'm interested in how an atheist or agnostic would best answer the question of how any thing whatsoever (much less the entire universe) could spawn out of absolute nothing. First, my understanding of absolute nothing:
1. Absolute nothing is not an empty vacuum, because an empty vacuum is still a container (thing)
2. Absolute nothing is not a point in time in which an empty vacuum didn't even exist yet, because time is still a thing (measurable)
3. Absolute nothing is not the plane of existence that lacks time and lacks a space/vacuum in which somehow the most basic laws of physics do exist. These laws of any degree are still a thing.
4. Absolute nothing is not a plane of existence in which time/space/laws will potentially come to be, because a plane of existence is still a thing.
Absolute nothing is exactly that: nothing whatsoever. Not emptiness. Not the "before". True and utter lack of existence or potential for existence of any kind. Before answering my real questions, feel free to rip apart this definition of absolute nothing. Like I said, long echo chamber history here so don't hold back. Now for the real question, parts A and B:
A. If absolute nothing "existed" at some point prior to all of this, how is it in anyway possible that something came to be? What are the scientific hopes/studies that show how the first atom/law of physics/plane of existence could have come to exist out of such nothingness?
B. If absolute nothing never "existed", would you consider yourself a believer in eternity/infinity?