Ad hom after ad hom.
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Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance, the only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
Beer Baron said:
The first line of the thread calls us destroyed, corrupted, ruined, perverted. Then it adds "worthless" to the mix. This after the subject line about our "reprobate minds." And we're the ad hominem people? Some book you've got there.
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The sad reality is that one of the consequences of a reprobate mind is that if you have one, the probability of you realizing you have one is diminished by the reprobate mind itself.
diehard03 said:
You know it's a topic about gays when the whole thread is blue.Quote:
The sad reality is that one of the consequences of a reprobate mind is that if you have one, the probability of you realizing you have one is diminished by the reprobate mind itself.
I guess you'd have your answer by considering how you want to be talked to, considering that you admit that you wouldn't be able to realize your own reprobate-ness.
edit: Romans 1 isn't the best scripture for this either. You can see its linking homosexuality to malice, boastfulness, evil, and all manners of unrighteousness. I am not sure one can make this link to all homosexuals. So, one must ask what Paul is really referring to here. it certainly seems to speak a cultural power dynamic system over just 2 people who act like every other heterosexual relationship. Personally, I don't have an answer here, but its a worthwhile question.
The only thing I object to that the man did was assume she wasn't living a fulfilled life. Extending the story more broadly, one should not assume someone's life is unfulfilled because they do not have have in common the thing that fulfills you.Agilaw said:
A story: I know a man who walked the earth hundreds of years ago. At that time, the society in which he lived struggled with morality and ethnic prejudice. One afternoon, this man met a woman of a different ethnicity at a local watering hole. It was unusual to meet a woman by herself at the watering hole during the afternoon. Social norms would have the man not speak or interact with the woman. The man engaged in conversation with the woman. It surprised her. The conversation revealed that the woman had been married and divorced many times and was currently living with a man with whom she wasn't married. She was effectively shunned in society. The man genuinely cared for the woman and didn't demean her. However, he knew she wasn't living a fulfilled life. So, he gave her words of wisdom that could change her life forever. The man's friends were watching the encounter from a distance. They couldn't believe their friend was interacting with the woman. It was a teaching experience for them to model in the future. I'm not sure if the woman changed her lifestyle after this encounter, but I know that this man modeled how to speak Truth in a loving way to someone who was very different from HIM.
Capybara said:Many people who leave Christianity altogether don't respect what the scripture says for various reasons, and the three main ones that come to mind are: 1) they don't believe it is the word of God, 2) they don't particularly care if it is the word of God, or 3) they don't believe in God.TxAgPreacher said:Beer Baron said:And yet you completely discount anything actual allegedly "lost" people say about how the way you speak to them and about them comes off. It's like we're some abstract problem for you to fix and not actual people with our own minds, thoughts, feelings, etc.Quote:
I'm genuinely trying to start a conversation on how we reach the lost
I'm not autistic I promise.
Jokes aside, I came in good faith. They were the ones coming in hot. The scripture says what it says. We can try to sugar coat it, but we cannot water it down. Hence the problem.
Don't you realize I said that in OP? I already knew the way it comes off. It's not even the way I come of, which I know is abrasive at times. It's just how people react the the bible. Even when I post the word of God with no comment they are often equally offended.
If the Bible is truly the word of the one true God, then I and many others will accept our fates. You cannot force celibacy on free people, and those who are involuntarily celibate (incels) act out their frustrations in destructive ways. It is extremely naive for you to think you have, or even should have, any sort of power over the sexual behaviors of other people.
Has it ever occurred to you that people take issue with your message because they believe you use the Bible to exert power over others? Those who are strong-willed don't respect people like you. Good luck with your goal of trying to change sexual behavior as you (again you, not "God") desire.
TxAgPreacher said:Beer Baron said:
The first line of the thread calls us destroyed, corrupted, ruined, perverted. Then it adds "worthless" to the mix. This after the subject line about our "reprobate minds." And we're the ad hominem people? Some book you've got there.
Those are words and their definitions. The point was to look at the definitions and to be honest about the problem.
The bible also calls me a sinner deserving death. It's what it does. It challenges us all to be better. It's not an attack it's the perfect law of liberty, designed to free us from ourselves.
The point being, that it's true that the homosexual has a depraved mind, and until they admit it they cannot make the changes necessary to be saved.
That's not ad hominem. That's a diagnosis.
Ad hom is attacking my character and motivation for trying to tell you what I believe is true.
And he came preaching a message of repentance:Quote:
John 12:46-50 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandmentwhat to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me."
It was always a message of changing your life, and could always be construed as juding by the sinner.Quote:
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
You bring up an interesting point. Do those people leave because they became dissatisfied with God and chose not to follow him even if they believe he exists…or did they just decide they no longer believe in God at all? Lots of Christians May experience anger toward God through horrific events in their life (why does God let bad things happen? What did God do this to me?) But it doesn't necessarily sway their belief, it's often a way to blame the ultimate authority for the treacheries they are working through. It's the wrong approach, but one of all humansAg_of_08 said:Capybara said:Many people who leave Christianity altogether don't respect what the scripture says for various reasons, and the three main ones that come to mind are: 1) they don't believe it is the word of God, 2) they don't particularly care if it is the word of God, or 3) they don't believe in God.TxAgPreacher said:Beer Baron said:And yet you completely discount anything actual allegedly "lost" people say about how the way you speak to them and about them comes off. It's like we're some abstract problem for you to fix and not actual people with our own minds, thoughts, feelings, etc.Quote:
I'm genuinely trying to start a conversation on how we reach the lost
I'm not autistic I promise.
Jokes aside, I came in good faith. They were the ones coming in hot. The scripture says what it says. We can try to sugar coat it, but we cannot water it down. Hence the problem.
Don't you realize I said that in OP? I already knew the way it comes off. It's not even the way I come of, which I know is abrasive at times. It's just how people react the the bible. Even when I post the word of God with no comment they are often equally offended.
If the Bible is truly the word of the one true God, then I and many others will accept our fates. You cannot force celibacy on free people, and those who are involuntarily celibate (incels) act out their frustrations in destructive ways. It is extremely naive for you to think you have, or even should have, any sort of power over the sexual behaviors of other people.
Has it ever occurred to you that people take issue with your message because they believe you use the Bible to exert power over others? Those who are strong-willed don't respect people like you. Good luck with your goal of trying to change sexual behavior as you (again you, not "God") desire.
A lot of who left Christianity do understand exactly what the scriptures say, and find the Christian godhead repressive, cruel, and unworthy of worship. As he said multiple times, the scriptures say what they say...and they make a punitive and cruel deity very clear.
As a fellow "give it to me straight" type, I also fully admit that there are ways to do it badly: publicly, without any sort of nod toward risk/reward calculus of the decision, etc, or ignoring other problem areas to focus one/ignoring any praiseworthy items as well. Blunt people like praise too, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel.Quote:
Interesting. The hard thing for me is that I like people to be blunt and direct, and many do not like that approach.
I don't think treat others as you would want to be treated means do things just exactly the way you prefer them, but to be kind and considerate.
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I guess what I'm getting at with this post is how do you be honest with someone about the depths of their sin, while comming off with compassion. I think it's hard over the internet, and even harder when it's a whole mindset or way of thinking. People hate being told they are wrong, and dont want something fundamental to be wrong. Small changes fine. But changing my whole way of thinking...
It's a toughie.
Thanks for the input.
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You bring up an interesting point. Do those people leave because they became dissatisfied with God and chose not to follow him even if they believe he exists…or did they just decide they no longer believe in God at all?
Good point.diehard03 said:As a fellow "give it to me straight" type, I also fully admit that there are ways to do it badly: publicly, without any sort of nod toward risk/reward calculus of the decision, etc, or ignoring other problem areas to focus one/ignoring any praiseworthy items as well. Blunt people like praise too, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us feel.Quote:
Interesting. The hard thing for me is that I like people to be blunt and direct, and many do not like that approach.
I don't think treat others as you would want to be treated means do things just exactly the way you prefer them, but to be kind and considerate.Quote:
I guess what I'm getting at with this post is how do you be honest with someone about the depths of their sin, while comming off with compassion. I think it's hard over the internet, and even harder when it's a whole mindset or way of thinking. People hate being told they are wrong, and dont want something fundamental to be wrong. Small changes fine. But changing my whole way of thinking...
It's a toughie.
Thanks for the input.
I think its' about "We vs You" mindset. We fall short of the glory of God, so we are all in this together. So, the communication needs be how We are part of God solution to helping us follow Him to each other.
People don't hate being told their wrong, persay. People react based on how they think you see them, how you communicate, what's your integrity, and their won defense mechanisms. We shouldn't excuse our bad communication or integrity issues on them though.
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I do think most people these days do hate being told they are wrong, no matter how nicely you say things though. Through personal experience. I preached the gospel once, and only said positive things. The guy went around behind my back telling everyone I told him he was going to hell. I never said anything even close to that.
I've been successful at times, and not at others.diehard03 said:Quote:
I do think most people these days do hate being told they are wrong, no matter how nicely you say things though. Through personal experience. I preached the gospel once, and only said positive things. The guy went around behind my back telling everyone I told him he was going to hell. I never said anything even close to that.
it's not necessarily about niceness, a lot of it has to do with equity...and prior to equity, reputation. Adding into that, audience (and therefore tone), matters. The counterexample to your position is that you probably have that guy (or better yet your spouse) who can call you out to your face and you take it/learn from it because of what they mean to you. I don't think this is unique to people who like blunt messaging.
i can't speak into your personal experience, as I don't know if you were in a hostile environment and you shouldn't have to worry about convincing everyone. I will say that you should seek wise counsel from a trusted source to hold you accountable that you really are saying positive things. I know I can convince myself I was doing something one way, when objectively I was not.
diehard03 said:
I don't know man.
If you're going to invoke Stephen, Peter, John the Baptist, Paul and even Christ himself...then I guess I don't know what you're worried about. Offend people and accept your martyrdom. We saw how many times Christ could have avoided the Cross, but headed straight for it. Go and do likewise.
But I think our gay friends are just looking for us not to look like Pharisees...which we often do. I can understand their frustration when they see that and wonder why we are so worried out their sexuality when Christ says A LOT against what we are doing (generally)