Matt. 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Why weren't mighty works done in Sodom then?

And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. - Matthew 11:23

Many were the miracles Jesus performed in the city of Capernaum. For this reason it was all the more necessary that those who dwelled there should believe. This city was for a time "lifted up unto heaven" on account of the miracles. But on account of the sin and unbelief of its inhabitants, an even more dreadful fall occurred, and they were "brought down to Hades." Christ was the steward. When the time was right, the Word became incarnate and performed miracles. He chastised Gentiles and Jews proportionately. Tyre and Sidon transgressed only natural law, but the Jews, who disobeyed Christ, transgressed the law of Moses and the prophets. Jesus said this even more sternly when he wished to point out that their wickedness was greater by comparison. For, if not these things, then other things might have happened in Tyre and Sidon, and even in Sodom and Gomorrah, if they had come to repentance. But, as I said, he presents this comparison in order more forcefully to demonstrate their wickedness.

- Theodore the Stratelates

Atheists say they would believe if they had seen Jesus's miracles. Jesus seems to agree with them.

Capernaum didn't believe.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Matt. 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Why weren't mighty works done in Sodom then?

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TLDR: Mighty works were done in Sodom. A flame of fire destroyed the entire city. God chose not to forgive the powers who controlled Sodom.

Again, it goes back to the powers and principalities. Divine turf, and the Kingdom of God. Also it helps to have the verses surrounding the blurb you quoted.

This verse has a parallel account in Luke. Ill put them side by side. They do switch up the order Jesus speaks, but overall, they convey the same messages:

Matthew 11:20-24.

20 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Luke 10:11-15.


11 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

KEY LOOK! -- In the Luke account, the works were done in Tyre and Sidon and the more bearable phrase refers Sodom and Gomorrah. In the Matthew account, the works were done in Sodom and Gomorrah and the more bearable phrase refers to Tyre and Sidon.

Jesus is making some sort of comparison between Capernum, Chorazin, and Bethesda to Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon. Now everyone is familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible. Fewer people are familiar with the Tyre and Sidon Accounts.

In Ezekiel there is a famous lament over the King of Tyre. It goes like this:

11 Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me: 12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:
"You were the signet of perfection,[a]
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,[b] emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.[c]
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;[d] you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you,[e] O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.

A little later in the passage, there is a prophecy against Sidon:

"Behold, I am against you, O Sidon,
and I will manifest my glory in your midst.
And they shall know that I am the Lord
when I execute judgments in her
and manifest my holiness in her;
23 for I will send pestilence into her,
and blood into her streets;
and the slain shall fall in her midst,
by the sword that is against her on every side.
Then they will know that I am the Lord.

24 "And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to ***** or a thorn to hurt them among all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord God.


The lament is comparing the town of Tyre to Ben Halal -Shachar, the shining one, son of dawn, the original rebel, Azazel. Who sat in the midst of God's sacred council in a place of honor. In fact, what Jesus is saying is true. In the Book of Enoch, Enoch is commissioned by Yahweh to deliver a message to the forces of darkness in hell. Enoch ventures into the underworld and proclaims destruction upon the forces of darkness. The forces of darkness repented immediately and asked Enoch to take a message to Yahweh on their behalf. They asked for forgiveness for their sins. That is, the figure known as Satan, asked Yahweh for forgiveness because he recognized the might of God. Yet, God refused Satan, and the souls of the departed giants sired by Satan and his minions their parlay.

Jesus is basically saying that even Satan tried to ask for forgiveness. Even Satan recognizes he is beat. But the city of Capernaum, Bethesda, etc. did not. In other words, these cities will be worse off than Satan in the end times.

The mighty works were done in Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon and the forces of darkness who controlled them tried to repent. However, God does not have to forgive anyone.

Jesus builds on the previous accounts of Tyre and Sidon. Jesus is comparing Capernaum to Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon.

From a Christian perspective, there has only been 2 times in history that God used miracles to promote or compel belief. First during the Exodus and second during the initial spread of the Gospel. At every other point, miracles were very carefully and judiciously used. In the OT miracles were done to prove that the prophet was receiving a message from God. The prophet already believed in God but was justifiably skeptical. So the miracle was a calling card of sorts. Second, miracles were done for people to already believed. Jesus' miracles fall under this mostly. He repeatedly says "your faith has healed you". He didn't go around showing off to get converts; he went around helping people who already had faith. Finally, God performed miracles for people who either died as a result or would die quickly. The killing of the Assyrians, the Flood, the priests of Baal, all of these people found out the power of God and then immediately died. So not a lot of new converts happening there.

Even the parts about the Exodus and the spread of the Gospel could be chalked up to God verifying His message and providing His messengers authenticity. The more important the message, the more spectacular the miracles. So the Torah and Gospel were initially associated with a grand outpouring of miracles, Not to make all the people believe, but to put emphasis on the message. Now there were probably some in the mixed multitude of the Exodus that didn't believe unitl the parting sea, or the miracles afterward, but they had all chosen God over Egypt at that point. Same thing with the Gospel, maybe some pagans saw the miracles and converted.

But aside from that, and on the whole, God seems to have been very circumspect about not using supernatural displays of power to pull in followers. So again, why not? Clearly an atheist would say that God isn't real and neither are the miracles. But what would a believer say? Why doesn't God just miracle everyone into belief? I've already given what I see as the reason. It takes a very light touch to preserve free will in the face of Almighty power

But it doesn't seem true. By your own admission god used miracles even if sparsely on a timeline basis to make himself known. Who's free will was violated?

The premise of god using miracles is not common might be argued for the OT even with many examples, but it seems a weaker claim for the NT.

Either way you can state god doesn't care much for miracles (I don't think this understanding is common throughout much of Christian history where belief in miracles that occur in the present lives of people for over a thousand years was common). But the reason given doesn't make sense.

By your own admission you believe in demons who's been in gods very presence who deny him. Believe that the Israelites saw wonders and turned from god. It only made the choice clearer it didn't deny the choice.

Well first, I don't believe angels or demons have free will. So their attitudes are moot to me.

Second, I'm not really sure what you're driving at. We both agree that God, assuming He exists, could miracle His way to universal belief. We both agree that this does not happen. You don't accept my explanation and that's fine. I feel like I've explained it well enough not to belabor the point, and I'm satisfied with my reasoning. So if this is supposed to be some sort of atheistic "gotcha", then I think I'm done here

It's a discussion forum. And it's hardly a gotcha, it's simply a major problem people of faith have to deal with. If that's what you have to offer than that's what you have. I'm not wrong for pointing out that's it seems a very weak argument as it has no logical foundation as to why or how free will is violated nor any support in scripture whatsoever.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Well first, I don't believe angels or demons have free will. So their attitudes are moot to me.

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Why don't you think they have free will?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Well first, I don't believe angels or demons have free will. So their attitudes are moot to me.

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Why don't you think they have free will?

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3 things. First, I can't think of any Scriptural examples of angels acting out of free will and can think of many cases to the contrary. Satan in the Book of Job is constantly asking God's permission to bring misfortune on Job. God specifically commands an evil spirit to mislead Ahab. And these are just examples of bad spirits. No one thinks good angels are working outside God's commands.

Second, I think of angels as mini-incarnations of various attributes. For instance, spirit representing your appetite could be good or evil. Good that it keeps you strong and capable, bad if it becomes gluttony. Same for any of the bodily urges. Good in some contexts, bad outside those contexts. Or driving a hard bargain versus fleecing another person. One is wise and prudent while the other is malicious. So for me the "spirits" of things are not usually good or bad except in their contexts. Sort of like the Platonic ideals of human nature. That's how I think of angels and demons, so it's weird to think of them as good or evil. They just are. So it's hard to wrap my head around the idea of spirit of honor/pride (or whatever) as having any sort of independent will.

Third, in my makeshift theology the angels/demons are the mechanism by which humans have free will. We have God's influence on the one hand and Satan's influence on the other. God specifically created Satan to tempt humans away from God. Otherwise how could created humans turn from their creator, unless they were created evil or flawed, and how could a perfect, good God create an evil or flawed creature? So anyway, Satan and bad spirits (or bad aspects of otherwise good spirits) are essential to human free will. If angels have free will, then who is tempting them away from God? You'd need some other celestial beings without free will, or maybe an infinite regression of temptation and free will with angels tempting humans then being tempted by other beings who are also being tempted, etc, etc.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Well first, I don't believe angels or demons have free will. So their attitudes are moot to me.

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Why don't you think they have free will?

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3 things. First, I can't think of any Scriptural examples of angels acting out of free will and can think of many cases to the contrary. Satan in the Book of Job is constantly asking God's permission to bring misfortune on Job. God specifically commands an evil spirit to mislead Ahab. And these are just examples of bad spirits. No one thinks good angels are working outside God's commands.

Second, I think of angels as mini-incarnations of various attributes. For instance, spirit representing your appetite could be good or evil. Good that it keeps you strong and capable, bad if it becomes gluttony. Same for any of the bodily urges. Good in some contexts, bad outside those contexts. Or driving a hard bargain versus fleecing another person. One is wise and prudent while the other is malicious. So for me the "spirits" of things are not usually good or bad except in their contexts. Sort of like the Platonic ideals of human nature. That's how I think of angels and demons, so it's weird to think of them as good or evil. They just are. So it's hard to wrap my head around the idea of spirit of honor/pride (or whatever) as having any sort of independent will.

Third, in my makeshift theology the angels/demons are the mechanism by which humans have free will. We have God's influence on the one hand and Satan's influence on the other. God specifically created Satan to tempt humans away from God. Otherwise how could created humans turn from their creator, unless they were created evil or flawed, and how could a perfect, good God create an evil or flawed creature? So anyway, Satan and bad spirits (or bad aspects of otherwise good spirits) are essential to human free will. If angels have free will, then who is tempting them away from God? You'd need some other celestial beings without free will, or maybe an infinite regression of temptation and free will with angels tempting humans then being tempted by other beings who are also being tempted, etc, etc.

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1 Kings 22:1923 (LEB): And he said, "Therefore, hear the word of Yahweh. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne with all the hosts of heaven standing beside him from his right hand and from his left hand. 20 And Yahweh said, 'Who will entice Ahab so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead?' Then this one was saying one thing and the other one was saying another. 21 Then a spirit came out and stood before Yahweh and said, 'I will entice him,' and Yahweh said to him, 'How?' 22 He said, 'I will go out and I will be a false spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You shall entice and succeed, go out and do so.' 23 So then, see that Yahweh has placed a false spirit in the mouth of all of these your prophets, and Yahweh has spoken disaster concerning you."

Quote:

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Matt. 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Why weren't mighty works done in Sodom then?

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Someone maybe able to piece together a timeline but the inhabitants of S and G are not too far removed from the great flood and the story of Babel. According to this chart, the people of Sodom and G may have known Noah and/or his sons.

https://viz.bible/visualizing-the-genesis-timeline-from-adam-to-abraham/

Hypothetically they may have been able to see Noah's ark still. Furthermore when they are struck with blindness they are still looking for Lot's door vs hitting their knees like others who have encounters with angels/God.

Observations: We learn that God knows all of the possible outcomes of a human decisions that could have been made in history. This is a very bold statement that only can be spoken truthfully from the perspective of an all knowing God. Quite a claim.

Why why weren't mighty works done? Ultimately, I don't know.

Does God desire all to be saved? Yes
Was God patient with Sodom? Yes
Did they have a righteous person living among them? Yes
Does God make mistakes? No.

Consider this phrase? If you give me money, I'll be your friend. If you entertain me, I'll be your friend. If you fill in the blank....I'll believe in you. God is relational and made us relational. When we add conditions for the relationship or belief it exposes the corrupt nature of our hearts.

Genesis 9:25-27
English Standard Version
25 he said, (Noah)

"Cursed be Canaan;
a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers."

Genesis 10: 15 Canaan's sonsSidon, the oldest, and Hethwere the ancestors of the peoples who bear their names. 16 Canaan was also the ancestor of the Jebusites, the Amorites, the Girga****es, 17 the Hivites, the Arkites, the Sinites, 18 the Arvadites, the Zemarites, and the Hamathites. The different tribes of the Canaanites spread out, 19 until the Canaanite borders reached from Sidon southward to Gerar near Gaza, and eastward to Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim near Lasha. 20 These are the descendants of Ham, living in their different tribes and countries, each group speaking its own language.