Interesting discussion with Francis Chan. As a Protestant I agree with most of what he says

bigcat22 said:

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Interesting discussion with Francis Chan. As a Protestant I agree with most of what he says

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His take on the Eucharist speaks to an important idea about 'seeking first the kingdom of God'. I think it's why studying the early church is so important. To many progressive church get caught up in applying scripture to today only without regard to how the church practiced for 1500 years bf the reformation

BluHorseShu said:

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bigcat22 said:

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Interesting discussion with Francis Chan. As a Protestant I agree with most of what he says

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His take on the Eucharist speaks to an important idea about 'seeking first the kingdom of God'. I think it's why studying the early church is so important. To many progressive church get caught up in applying scripture to today only without regard to how the church practiced for 1500 years bf the reformation

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Yes find your local Orthodox parish and become a catechumen. You can learn all about it from your priest.

St. Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Other quotes here- https://stpeterorthodoxchurch.com/new-to-orthodoxy/the-church-fathers-on-the-holy-eucharist/

https://thorncrownministries.com/srr/2019/8/25/tdb-8-the-conversion-of-marcus-grodi-part-3-the-eucharist-part-1


TDB 8 The Conversion of Marcus Grodi part 3 (THE EUCHARIST PART 1)


In this episode, we begin to analyze the second part of Marcus Grodi's evidence from the early church fathers that led to his conversion to Roman Catholicism: the Eucharist. We cover the origin of the Eucharist and the origin of the term "Sacrifice of the Mass" and begin to show from the early church that "the Eucharist" was the tithe offering for 300 years, until the end of the 4th century when the Roman Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass was born.

bigcat22 said:

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Interesting discussion with Francis Chan. As a Protestant I agree with most of what he says

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I don't think Francis Chan has it quite right. Evidence, Genesis 18. Genesis 18 serves several purposes theologically.

TLDR: When God appeared to Abraham, he shared communion with Abraham. God gave Abraham wine, the first wine the world had ever seen. GOD INVENTED WINE!

First and most famously, Genesis 18 is used variously to posit the idea of the Trinity. This is popular opinion.

Second, I have seen Genesis 18 to discuss hospitality etc. This is popular opinion.

However, there is a key point missing from the current popular discourse, and that Mr. Chan is missing. The idea of bread and wine eaten in a ceremonial meal was not invented in 0 D by Jesus, but long before that by the glorified Jesus as the Angel of the Lord who appeared to Abraham.

Genesis 18 was written as a polemic against the ritual consumption of wine and food popular amongst the greeks. See Chapter 17 On the Wine God in Palestine (Genesis 18, John2, and Achilles Tatius) in Religions in the Graeco-Roman world.

The city of Tyre, a rival to the Israelites, who helped Babylon destroy Jerusalem, adopted many of the Greek customs as a result of their extensive trade with Greece.

The Tyrians," Tatius' hero says,3 "think Dionysus their own, since they also keep repeating the myth of Cadmus. And they tell a myth about the origin of this feast. At one time wine was unknown among men .... [But there lived among the Tyrians] a hospitable shepherd4 [and] Dionysus came to visit him .... He puts before [the god] such food as earth and the udders of cattle provide, and their drink, too, was what an ox would drink, for as yet there was no beverage from the vine.
See E. Vilborg, Achilles Tatius Leucippe and ****ophron (Stockholm, 1955) (Studia Graeca et Latina Gothoburgensia, I).
Vilborg, text, p. XXXVII, thinks Tatius. for artistic variation of wording, wrote "shepherd ... oxherd ... shepherd." The MSS wrote "oxherd" throughout, but "shepherd" is preserved in the papyri.

In other words, in Greek thought, there was a story about a shepherd who was visited by Dionysus. The shepherd fed Dionysus, who gave the shepherd wine. This is the myth as to how wine was invented in Greek thought.

To counter this narrative, Genesis 18 describes a shepherd (Abraham) who is visited by Yahweh instead of Dionysus. Abraham fed Yahweh, who blessed Abraham with a Son.

Genesis 18 also reveals the reversal of Genesis 13.

Now I think Yahweh gave Abraham wine that day. Just as Jesus have his disciples wine. Now, Genesis 18 does not explicitly say that Yahweh gave Abraham wine, but a later passages indicates he did.

Genesis 27:26-28.

Then his father Isaac said to him, "come near and kiss me, my son." And he drew near and kissed him. And he smelled the smell of his garments, and he blessed him and said,

"Look, the smell of my son is like the smell of a field that Yahweh has blessed"! (THAT IS JACOB SMELLED LIKE WINE!!! --- my addition) May God give you of the dew of heaven and of the fatness of the earth, and abundance of grain and new wine.

Isaac is asking God to give Jacob wine! Isaac heard from Abraham that when God gave Abraham wine, that is when Isaac was conceived. Isaac is asking God to give Jacob children!!

When God appeared to Abraham he shared communion with Abraham.