John the Baptist losing faith?

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Martin Q. Blank
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3:34p, 1/20/22
How it started
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb.

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.'"

How it's going
Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, "Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?"
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svaggie
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4:48p, 1/20/22
AG
He never lost faith. He knew who Jesus was his entire life.
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nortex97
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:49p, 1/20/22
AG
Nah, just part of Matthew/Luke's narrative about how Jesus revealed himself as the Messiah (of course not part of Mark's, where only the reader and Jesus really appreciate who he is).
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Zobel
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7:16p, 1/20/22
AG
I don't think you can read that passage separate from the preceding verse, ch 7, where people have said a great prophet has risen above us, and God has visited His people.

The question is also a bit of layers. As Christians reading the Prophets in the OT we know how it ends so we can hindsight. The picture for people in the 1st century awaiting the messiah was considerably less clear. Who the messiah was going to be, what he was going to do, how that related to God, all had various interpretations. One of the theories at the second temple period was that there would be two messiahs, not one. In the Dead Sea scrolls for example there's talk of a priestly messiah, and a kingly messiah. One to restore the temple and one to restore the nation. Some people thought Elijah would come first then the messiah - either literal Elijah or figurative Elijah. I don't think St. John is saying, are you the messiah, but more like what kind of messiah are you? Or even are you the Prophet?

It isn't doubt. He sees what Jesus is doing, he sees these things happening and he knows the messianic age is happening. So he's saying - in a kind faith, expecting an answer - how is it happening? It's also in a way a question of humility. We see St John as heavily associated with Elijah, it turns out HE was the prophet before the One. But St John didn't see himself that way.

The answer Jesus gives is pointing to Isaiah, the same passage He reads in the synagogue. Eyes of the blind open, good news preached to the poor, basically saying that I am the one Isaiah spoke of. Blessed is he who is not offended by me is saying that - even so, the way His messiahship is revealed, crucifixion and death, people who see that and believe and don't let their expectations about what I should be and what I should do get in the way, they are blessed.

Also, St John asks for clarification for who Jesus is. Jesus also clarifies who St John is - that St John is Elijah, the first figure… and Jesus is the second figure.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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12:34a, 1/21/22
AG
Doesn't Luke also tell us that when Mary visited Elizabeth and when the sound of her voice reached Elizabeth's ears the child in her womb leapt? I think maybe John was aware of who Jesus was his entire life and his leaping in Elizabeth's womb is like King David dancing around the Ark which contained the word of God as Mary was the new Ark containing the Word made flesh.
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Frok
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7:13a, 1/21/22
AG
I think John is like any of us, he believed Jesus was the messiah but in a moment where he's stuck in prison waiting to be executed he questioned it. He probably expected Jesus to be a more triumphant messiah rather than the suffering servant.



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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 7:54a, 1/21/22
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
Doesn't Luke also tell us that when Mary visited Elizabeth and when the sound of her voice reached Elizabeth's ears the child in her womb leapt? I think maybe John was aware of who Jesus was his entire life and his leaping in Elizabeth's womb is like King David dancing around the Ark which contained the word of God as Mary was the new Ark containing the Word made flesh.
I forgot about that. Added to the OP.
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PabloSerna
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11:24a, 1/21/22
AG
Judas lost faith. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. In John 6:66, we read about many of his disciples leaving Jesus. Even Lucifer had to test Jesus to know he was the one.

All this to say that there is a very personal aspect to one's relationship with God.
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diehard03
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11:26a, 1/21/22
Quote:
I think John is like any of us, he believed Jesus was the messiah but in a moment where he's stuck in prison waiting to be executed he questioned it. He probably expected Jesus to be a more triumphant messiah rather than the suffering servant.

I agree with you...I don't know that it was a literal "questioning", but a more passive-aggressive way of asking Jesus to send him information as to what was going on so he could endure what he expected would happen to him. Jesus gladly acquiesced to the request.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to PabloSerna • 5:18p, 1/21/22
AG
PabloSerna said:
Judas lost faith. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. In John 6:66, we read about many of his disciples leaving Jesus. Even Lucifer had to test Jesus to know he was the one.

All this to say that there is a very personal aspect to one's relationship with God.
I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to elaborate on the whole Lucifer testing Jesus to know he was the one statement.
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Win At Life
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In reply to Frok • 5:48p, 1/21/22
AG
Frok said:
I think John is like any of us, he believed Jesus was the messiah but in a moment where he's stuck in prison waiting to be executed he questioned it. He probably expected Jesus to be a more triumphant messiah rather than the suffering servant.





This is my belief as well. I don't think he lost faith so much as he didn't understand Yeshua's "mission" clearly from scripture. In the first century, and still today, many Jews believe scripture points to a Messiah Ben Yosef, and a Messiah Ben David. Are they two separate people? Do they come at the same time or in near proximity to each other? Are they one person who embodies both of these qualities at the same time? Are they one person who comes at two different times?

We now know it is the last one, but in John's time this was not obvious. I believe that's what John was trying to get clarification on.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 11:31p, 1/21/22
AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
PabloSerna said:
Judas lost faith. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. In John 6:66, we read about many of his disciples leaving Jesus. Even Lucifer had to test Jesus to know he was the one.

All this to say that there is a very personal aspect to one's relationship with God.
I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to elaborate on the whole Lucifer testing Jesus to know he was the one statement.
From Aquinas' Summa Theologiae, Question 41: Christ's Temptation

Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix): "Christ was known to the demons only so far as He willed; not as the Author of eternal life, but as the cause of certain temporal effects," from which they formed a certain conjecture that Christ was the Son of God. But since they also observed in Him certain signs of human frailty, they did not know for certain that He was the Son of God: wherefore (the devil) wished to tempt Him. This is implied by the words of Matthew 4:2-3, saying that, after "He was hungry, the tempter" came "to Him," because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii), "Had not Christ's weakness in hungering betrayed His human nature, the devil would not have dared to tempt Him." Moreover, this appears from the very manner of the temptation, when he said: "If Thou be the Son of God." Which words Ambrose explains as follows (In Luc. iv): "What means this way of addressing Him, save that, though he knew that the Son of God was to come, yet he did not think that He had come in the weakness of the flesh?"


+++

Lucifer is not all knowing and had his own doubts about Jesus initially. However, once Lucifer knew - he knew perfectly. Jesus had to silence the demons after that, until the right time.



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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to PabloSerna • 11:41p, 1/21/22
AG
PabloSerna said:
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
PabloSerna said:
Judas lost faith. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. In John 6:66, we read about many of his disciples leaving Jesus. Even Lucifer had to test Jesus to know he was the one.

All this to say that there is a very personal aspect to one's relationship with God.
I'm going to have to go ahead and ask you to elaborate on the whole Lucifer testing Jesus to know he was the one statement.
From Aquinas' Summa Theologiae, Question 41: Christ's Temptation

Reply to Objection 1. As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix): "Christ was known to the demons only so far as He willed; not as the Author of eternal life, but as the cause of certain temporal effects," from which they formed a certain conjecture that Christ was the Son of God. But since they also observed in Him certain signs of human frailty, they did not know for certain that He was the Son of God: wherefore (the devil) wished to tempt Him. This is implied by the words of Matthew 4:2-3, saying that, after "He was hungry, the tempter" came "to Him," because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii), "Had not Christ's weakness in hungering betrayed His human nature, the devil would not have dared to tempt Him." Moreover, this appears from the very manner of the temptation, when he said: "If Thou be the Son of God." Which words Ambrose explains as follows (In Luc. iv): "What means this way of addressing Him, save that, though he knew that the Son of God was to come, yet he did not think that He had come in the weakness of the flesh?"


+++

Lucifer is not all knowing and had his own doubts about Jesus initially. However, once Lucifer knew - he knew perfectly. Jesus had to silence the demons after that, until the right time.



Good enough for the Angelic Doctor is good enough for me.

Thanks for taking the time to educate me.
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PA24
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In reply to Zobel • 6:20a, 1/24/22
AG
Excellent read.
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PabloSerna
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10:57a, 1/24/22
AG
This was a good question OP, because I have done some more reading about John and why he may have been confused, perhaps like Judas, as to why Jesus was not bringing down vengeance on the Romans (ISA 35:4). It also is wonderful how Jesus does not directly tell John's disciples, "Of course I'm the Messiah!" or something more explicit. Rather Jesus points to scripture (LK 7:22-23) similarly when he asked the Apostles, "Who do you say that I am?" With only St. Peter, inspired by God, proclaims, "You are the Christ, son of the living God" followed by Jesus declaration, "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my heavenly Father." (MT 16:16-17).

As others have already pointed out, it could be that John was expecting 2 different people as the coming Messiah, or as I have read elsewhere, that John was in a way challenging Jesus to do something about their enemies, not unlike when Peter mentioned to Jesus that he didn't have to travel to Jerusalem (MK 8:31-38). Jesus rebuked Peter and laid out clearly the conditions he and all of us - must do to follow Christ.

Sometimes I used to think what it would have been like to follow Jesus during that time? Clearly, Judas, John, and Peter show us that it was not so easy!

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94chem
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11:46a, 1/25/22
Quote:
With only St. Peter, inspired by God, proclaims, "You are the Christ, son of the living God" followed by Jesus declaration, "Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my heavenly Father." (MT 16:16-17).
...and a few verses later, Jesus refers to Peter (his words at least) as Satan. So if Peter can mix a little doubt in along the way, John the Baptist can too, I suppose.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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nortex97
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In reply to PabloSerna • 3:34p, 1/25/22
AG
Don't forget doubting Thomas.
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aggiebrad94
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11:33a, 2/8/22
AG
The Mary & Elizabeth is my most curious question of the scripture. Why didn't they get together more when they had kids? I would have thought they would have raised them next door to each other and helped them plan to save the world.

In other words - like every other scripture - why didn't God do it like I would?
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Zobel
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In reply to aggiebrad94 • 12:18p, 2/8/22
AG
Because Herod was trying to kill St John. Church tradition is that his father was murdered and his mother fled and later died. That's why he grew up in the wilderness.
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