Use of a Nazi flag at a recent Catholic funeral

3,305 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by 747Ag
PabloSerna
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LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.

PacifistAg
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Disgusting, but then again, we have had people on this board try to argue the merits of race-based apartheid and nationalism. So I'm not really surprised.
jrico2727
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Thanks for pointing this out.

Nazi's are bad yall, ok

Disagree with being stripped of our Catholic Heritage, what we should look at as our inheritance, and your just like Mel Gibson's dad and a de facto Nazi. This isn't a false flag at all.

Thanks for protecting us from this trap.
nortex97
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Exactly. Hutton Gibson was mainly a conspiracy theorist in his old age, it sounds like (I'd never heard of him until I just looked him up).

What a weird way to try to make the RCC liturgy discussion somehow villainous toward conservatives today.

We get it already, Pablo, you don't want anything traditional to remain, and your views on all things must be endorsed by all.
jkag89
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So connect the dots for me please, how does this event correspond to those who favor more traditional forms of worship?
747Ag
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jkag89 said:

So connect the dots for me please, how does this event correspond to those who favor more traditional forms of worship?
There's a few lefty Catholics that insist those of us that often worship in the Old Rite tend to be more racist etc... I don't see it in the various Latin Mass groups that I've been in.
File5
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PabloSerna said:

LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.




1) Did someone here call NO "progressive"? From what I've seen everyone here recognizes the validity of NO Mass (heck, it's the only one I've ever been to and I see great beauty in it). It's the TLM being marginalized.
2) How would you describe the Christmas Eve Mass at St. Sabina's on the other thread? Traditional or Progressive?
3) Assuming this church in the article had a funeral Mass (article didn't say), I wonder if it was NO vs TLM. But those two things have nothing to do with each other so I would never make a connection between the Nazis and NO.
4) "There was a Nazi flag after a Catholic funeral rite, and TLM-supporters are basically Nazis". Is that the gist of your argument?
PabloSerna
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"Have we been stuck all too long, nestled inside a conventional, external and formal religiosity that no longer warms our hearts and changes our lives?," Francis said.

"Do our words and our liturgies ignite in people's hearts a desire to move towards God, or are they a 'dead language' that speaks only of itself and to itself?"

+++

I knew this would strike a nerve, but maybe something can come out of this. If anything, just hear me out on what I think the Pope is alluding to when he says the Faith was not "a suit of armour that encases us; instead, it is a fascinating journey, a constant and restless movement, ever in search of God."

I was going to take excerpts from Lumen Gentium, which is a central document from Vatican II, the Universal Call to Holiness, but I think this particular part should be read in its entirety:

33. The laity are gathered together in the People of God and make up the Body of Christ under one head. Whoever they are they are called upon, as living members, to expend all their energy for the growth of the Church and its continuous sanctification, since this very energy is a gift of the Creator and a blessing of the Redeemer.


The lay apostolate, however, is a participation in the salvific mission of the Church itself. Through their baptism and confirmation all are commissioned to that apostolate by the Lord Himself. Moreover, by the sacraments, especially holy Eucharist, that charity toward God and man which is the soul of the apostolate is communicated and nourished. Now the laity are called in a special way to make the Church present and operative in those places and circumstances where only through them can it become the salt of the earth (2*). Thus every layman, in virtue of the very gifts bestowed upon him, is at the same time a witness and a living instrument of the mission of the Church itself "according to the measure of Christ's bestowal".(197)

Besides this apostolate which certainly pertains to all Christians, the laity can also be called in various ways to a more direct form of cooperation in the apostolate of the Hierarchy (3*). This was the way certain men and women assisted Paul the Apostle in the Gospel, laboring much in the Lord.(198) Further, they have the capacity to assume from the Hierarchy certain ecclesiastical functions, which are to be performed for a spiritual purpose.

Upon all the laity, therefore, rests the noble duty of working to extend the divine plan of salvation to all men of each epoch and in every land. Consequently, may every opportunity be given them so that, according to their abilities and the needs of the times, they may zealously participate in the saving work of the Church.

ETA:

For me it boils down to the ability for me as a lay person to participate in the Liturgy (Vatican II) in a way that is reflected in this call to holiness. This participation will be the same around the world, but expressed in ways reflective of the people that make up that church. For us here in Central Texas and my home in South Texas - you get some mariachi music from time to time. I have attended a mass in Vietnamese and enjoyed their music and dance. Clearly, the parish in Chicago is home to some great African-American Catholics who have wonderful musical talent that they give back to our Lord!

PabloSerna
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File5 said:

PabloSerna said:

LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.




1) Did someone here call NO "progressive"? From what I've seen everyone here recognizes the validity of NO Mass (heck, it's the only one I've ever been to and I see great beauty in it). It's the TLM being marginalized.
2) How would you describe the Christmas Eve Mass at St. Sabina's on the other thread? Traditional or Progressive?
3) Assuming this church in the article had a funeral Mass (article didn't say), I wonder if it was NO vs TLM. But those two things have nothing to do with each other so I would never make a connection between the Nazis and NO.
4) "There was a Nazi flag after a Catholic funeral rite, and TLM-supporters are basically Nazis". Is that the gist of your argument?
#1 - I don't agree that TLM is being marginalized. It is being reined in, it would seem. The goal being to have 1 Roman rite instead of 2.

#2 - In a word, beautiful!

#3 - We don't know, but which form of the mass is not the issue - its that fact that neo-nazism can rear its ugly head even in the midst of a religious ceremony. I tried to draw a parallel between a current event and the late Hutton Gibson who wrote a book about Pope Paul VI. I found out about Mel Gibson's dad around the time of the movie, The Passion of the Christ, and keep him and Mel Gibson in prayer, because I believe that they love the church, but as some on here - are stuck in the past.

#4 - Well if the shoe... just kidding! Not at all. I am trying to point out that ignorance and fear are at the center with the criticism against Pope Francis and what he is trying to do - namely bring us (RCCs) closer to being one through a single Roman rite that is in harmony with Vatican II.


File5
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PabloSerna said:

File5 said:

PabloSerna said:

LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.




1) Did someone here call NO "progressive"? From what I've seen everyone here recognizes the validity of NO Mass (heck, it's the only one I've ever been to and I see great beauty in it). It's the TLM being marginalized.
2) How would you describe the Christmas Eve Mass at St. Sabina's on the other thread? Traditional or Progressive?
3) Assuming this church in the article had a funeral Mass (article didn't say), I wonder if it was NO vs TLM. But those two things have nothing to do with each other so I would never make a connection between the Nazis and NO.
4) "There was a Nazi flag after a Catholic funeral rite, and TLM-supporters are basically Nazis". Is that the gist of your argument?
#1 - I don't agree that TLM is being marginalized. It is being reined in, it would seem. The goal being to have 1 Roman rite instead of 2.

#2 - In a word, beautiful!

#3 - We don't know, but which form of the mass is not the issue - its that fact that neo-nazism can rear its ugly head even in the midst of a religious ceremony. I tried to draw a parallel between a current event and the late Hutton Gibson who wrote a book about Pope Paul VI. I found out about Mel Gibson's dad around the time of the movie, The Passion of the Christ, and keep him and Mel Gibson in prayer, because I believe that they love the church, but as some on here - are stuck in the past.

#4 - Well if the shoe... just kidding! Not at all. I am trying to point out that ignorance and fear are at the center with the criticism against Pope Francis and what he is trying to do - namely bring us (RCCs) closer to being one through a single Roman rite that is in harmony with Vatican II.





Appreciate the direct responses. Reined in, marginalized, those are synonyms in this case IMO. As for the Mass in Chicago...I still can't get over this: you think that was a beautiful Mass, but the Mass celebrated for centuries needs to be "reined in"? That was a show, not a Mass. So for the all-important unity's sake, why do you approve of it? Why not rein them in too? Every Mass should be the same NO but in local dialect, no exceptions and no deviations.

Will take a look at Hutton Gibson, know nothing about the man...

As for the last point, have you considered that Pope Francis might simply be wrong on this, and that maybe you can't get past your bias?
RebelE Infantry
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What in the Novus Ordo Nonsense is going on in this thread?

I will point out that the TLM is for all intents and purposes banned in the diocese of Rome, so this was almost certainly a NO Mass.

Not that it really matters because we have an ultra leftcath lay Dominican in here somehow trying to use this incident to smear traditionalists. It smacks of calumny to be quite honest.
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
wbt5845
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If y'all read the article, this flag was not used in church. After they rolled the casket outside after Mass, they put the flag on and did the Nazi salute.

This has nothing to do with the Ordinary Mass.
File5
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We read the article. It had nothing to do with either Mass. But Pablo thought this had a connection to people who prefer the TLM for some reason.
05AG
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747Ag said:

jkag89 said:

So connect the dots for me please, how does this event correspond to those who favor more traditional forms of worship?
There's a few lefty Catholics that insist those of us that often worship in the Old Rite tend to be more racist etc... I don't see it in the various Latin Mass groups that I've been in.


I challenge anyone to come to Regina Caeli Parish in Houston and show me a more diverse group.
RebelE Infantry
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Do I know you?
The flames of the Imperium burn brightly in the hearts of men repulsed by degenerate modernity. Souls aflame with love of goodness, truth, beauty, justice, and order.
05AG
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PabloSerna said:

"Have we been stuck all too long, nestled inside a conventional, external and formal religiosity that no longer warms our hearts and changes our lives?," Francis said.

"Do our words and our liturgies ignite in people's hearts a desire to move towards God, or are they a 'dead language' that speaks only of itself and to itself?"

+++

I knew this would strike a nerve, but maybe something can come out of this. If anything, just hear me out on what I think the Pope is alluding to when he says the Faith was not "a suit of armour that encases us; instead, it is a fascinating journey, a constant and restless movement, ever in search of God."

I was going to take excerpts from Lumen Gentium, which is a central document from Vatican II, the Universal Call to Holiness, but I think this particular part should be read in its entirety:

33. The laity are gathered together in the People of God and make up the Body of Christ under one head. Whoever they are they are called upon, as living members, to expend all their energy for the growth of the Church and its continuous sanctification, since this very energy is a gift of the Creator and a blessing of the Redeemer.


The lay apostolate, however, is a participation in the salvific mission of the Church itself. Through their baptism and confirmation all are commissioned to that apostolate by the Lord Himself. Moreover, by the sacraments, especially holy Eucharist, that charity toward God and man which is the soul of the apostolate is communicated and nourished. Now the laity are called in a special way to make the Church present and operative in those places and circumstances where only through them can it become the salt of the earth (2*). Thus every layman, in virtue of the very gifts bestowed upon him, is at the same time a witness and a living instrument of the mission of the Church itself "according to the measure of Christ's bestowal".(197)

Besides this apostolate which certainly pertains to all Christians, the laity can also be called in various ways to a more direct form of cooperation in the apostolate of the Hierarchy (3*). This was the way certain men and women assisted Paul the Apostle in the Gospel, laboring much in the Lord.(198) Further, they have the capacity to assume from the Hierarchy certain ecclesiastical functions, which are to be performed for a spiritual purpose.

Upon all the laity, therefore, rests the noble duty of working to extend the divine plan of salvation to all men of each epoch and in every land. Consequently, may every opportunity be given them so that, according to their abilities and the needs of the times, they may zealously participate in the saving work of the Church.

ETA:

For me it boils down to the ability for me as a lay person to participate in the Liturgy (Vatican II) in a way that is reflected in this call to holiness. This participation will be the same around the world, but expressed in ways reflective of the people that make up that church. For us here in Central Texas and my home in South Texas - you get some mariachi music from time to time. I have attended a mass in Vietnamese and enjoyed their music and dance. Clearly, the parish in Chicago is home to some great African-American Catholics who have wonderful musical talent that they give back to our Lord!




Here, much like in the other thread, you sorely lack understanding of the VII documents. SC expressly forbids anyone including a priest from adding, removing, or changing anything in the liturgy under their own authority. It also forbids mass being directed at certain groups of people, ie Firefighters mass, police mass, etc. Once again, it's not traditionalist that are denying actual VII.

I like how Fr Britton puts it in his book so I'll quote him instead of putting it in my own words:

Tinkering with the liturgy to make it more engaging or entertaining indirectly forms communities to believe their actions and feelings are the basis of the liturgical action. The liturgy develops a egocentric character…….

"I just get more out of their services….." This kind of thinking is the direct result of God's people not being properly educated on the purpose of worship as well as pastors unduly prioritizing external actions…..


In regards to the misused and abused phrase "active participation" and after breaking down the word action:

All this to say that action is primarily receptive. Reception precedes action; action presupposes reception. To be active doesn't mean "to do stuff." It primarily means to be still and receive. It is a conscious recognition of what is happening to you, not what you are doing. This is a fundamental principle of the spiritual life. We do not grow in holiness by our volition alone, but by receiving Christs grace.

Now i absolutely love the perfect example he gives of someone who was actively participating:

Nowhere is this better exemplified than in the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary…..God took this receptive spirit and made it the most fruitful activity in world history……She contemplated these events in her heart and responded to the mission of the Son by staying at His side until the very end, at the foot of the cross. Thus, the Blessed Mother teaches us the real basis of active participation: to consciously recognize God's presence and peacefully allow His will to inform our actions.
File5
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This was a fantastic post, thank you! I'll have to meditate a little on that, especially the active participation part - Mary is a great role model in so many ways!
nortex97
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This isn't worth a separate post/thread imho but the changes in South/Central America are interesting. (Note, following is from a blog, I think by a catholic writer, but the WSJ piece is linked in the paste):

Quote:

But what about the Catholic Church? Many parishes have also become politicized, while many have resisted. I used to say that you could tell a Catholic parish to avoid by one simple screen: find out if it offers a "guitar mass." There seemed to be a reasonably robust correlation between guitar mass and tracts on "liberation theology" (aka, Marxism with salsa).



The Wall Street Journal yesterday reported on how evangelical denominations, especially Pentecostals, are booming in Latin America, and may soon outnumber Catholics, which would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. (See nearby chart.)

The story includes this delicious detail that I think is a large part of the cause of this shift:
Quote:

The rise of liberation theology in the 1960s and '70s, a time when the Catholic Church in Latin America increasingly stressed its mission as one of social justice, in some cases drawing on Marxist ideas, failed to counter the appeal of Protestant faiths. Or, in the words of a now-legendary quip, variously attributed to Catholic and Protestant sources: "The Catholic Church opted for the poor and the poor opted for the Pentecostals."
Whittaker Chambers (a Quaker) once wrote that "There is only one fully logical conservative position in the Westthat of the Catholic Church. . . The Church is the only true counterrevolutionary force." As such, I think this additional detail in the WSJ article would cheer him:
Quote:

A more recent movement is in militant conservative Catholicism which stresses apologetics, or the defense of Catholic doctrine. A major leader is the Brazilian Rev. Paulo Ricardo, a priest with 1.5 million followers on Facebook who has condemned liberation theology as heresy and enthusiastically supported elements of Mr. Bolsonaro's agenda such as relaxed laws on gun ownership.
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.
PabloSerna
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No one group or person has a monopoly on the mission!

ETA: It is really about evangelization and not "winning" souls for your denomination. Fr. Gustavo Gutierrez OP has a wonderful book, The Power of the Poor in History that is worth reading.

FIDO95
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What a horribly titled thread. OP, did you misread the article or intend on creating strife to fit a narrative? The only thing going on in the article is there was a Catholic funeral. Following the service, the right wingers placed a Nazi flag on the casket. I fail to see any correlation other then they happened in close proximity in time. Just in case you are unaware, sinners are given a funeral Mass. Even people executed for murder if they request one.

IMO, the move to a traditional Latin Mass is not a move to the "right" politically. It is a move away from the rationalism that has hollowed out Christian churches and back to a more mystical approach. It is a belief that too much emphasis on the rational is leaving people unfulfilled and leads them away from church to other "meaning". Faith ultimately requires some degree of mysticism and this is an attempt to recapture that lost connection to the Devine.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Someone needs to study the sin of calumny and consider whether posting an article about nazi flags at a funeral and associating it with the TLM and those who prefer the TLM might be fairly considered calumny.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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PabloSerna said:

LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.




https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2022/01/14/opinion-the-spiritual-capital-punishment-of-faithful-catholics/

"In an opinion piece in The Catholic Thing, Father Gerald Murray highlights the mean-spiritedness of the Vatican's directives. Father Murray demonstrates that the mandates are cruel and incoherent. The reasons invoked for effectively suppressing the EF smear the reputations of the clergy and laity devoted to the EF. But most of those who participate in the Extraordinary Form do so peacefully, reverently, and with orthodox faith."
aggietony2010
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PabloSerna said:

File5 said:

PabloSerna said:

LINK

While we debate traditional and so called 'progressive' liturgies...

The diocese statement called the flag "a horrendous symbol that cannot be reconciled with Christianity" and said the episode was an offensive example of "ideological exploitation" of a religious service.

This is where things can end up and what I believe concerns Pope Francis. I can't even imagine this happening, but it did and we all know there are Christians, even the late Hutton Gibson (Mel's dad) who shared similar views being espoused here. The small things do matter, because they add up.




1) Did someone here call NO "progressive"? From what I've seen everyone here recognizes the validity of NO Mass (heck, it's the only one I've ever been to and I see great beauty in it). It's the TLM being marginalized.
2) How would you describe the Christmas Eve Mass at St. Sabina's on the other thread? Traditional or Progressive?
3) Assuming this church in the article had a funeral Mass (article didn't say), I wonder if it was NO vs TLM. But those two things have nothing to do with each other so I would never make a connection between the Nazis and NO.
4) "There was a Nazi flag after a Catholic funeral rite, and TLM-supporters are basically Nazis". Is that the gist of your argument?
#1 - I don't agree that TLM is being marginalized. It is being reined in, it would seem. The goal being to have 1 Roman rite instead of 2.

#2 - In a word, beautiful!

#3 - We don't know, but which form of the mass is not the issue - its that fact that neo-nazism can rear its ugly head even in the midst of a religious ceremony. I tried to draw a parallel between a current event and the late Hutton Gibson who wrote a book about Pope Paul VI. I found out about Mel Gibson's dad around the time of the movie, The Passion of the Christ, and keep him and Mel Gibson in prayer, because I believe that they love the church, but as some on here - are stuck in the past.

#4 - Well if the shoe... just kidding! Not at all. I am trying to point out that ignorance and fear are at the center with the criticism against Pope Francis and what he is trying to do - namely bring us (RCCs) closer to being one through a single Roman rite that is in harmony with Vatican II.





1) I'm fine with one Roman Rite. We can start by following SC to the tee. Parishes across the world will be shocked when it more closely resembles the TLM than the standard NO Mass.

2) you can describe it however you want. It was blasphemous and progressive. That's not opinion.

3) the flag draping occured after the funeral mass. And your not so subtle attempt to link it to traditionalists was calumnious.

4) see number 1.
747Ag
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aggietony2010 said:

1) I'm fine with one Roman Rite. We can start by following SC to the tee. Parishes across the world will be shocked when it more closely resembles the TLM than the standard NO Mass.
That would be the largely unknown 1965 missal.
PabloSerna
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Father Richard Simon (970 AM) had a scriptural response to a caller who had an issue with TLM being removed from his parish - 1 SAMUEL 15 - "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice."

As someone wrote recently, TLM is getting reined in for the few "bad apples".

aggietony2010
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PabloSerna said:

Father Richard Simon (970 AM) had a scriptural response to a caller who had an issue with TLM being removed from his parish - 1 SAMUEL 15 - "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice."

As someone wrote recently, TLM is getting reined in for the few "bad apples".




Are you reining in your homosexualist progressive heresies that seek to sanctify blatantly sinful sexual acts? No. You promote it, ignore it, and hope to change firm teachings of the church.

Did said caller decide to conduct his own TLM in defiance? Did anyone actually disobey the bishop? It is not disobedience to protest while obeying.

I will continue to obey wicked prelates in accordance with the Council of Trent, even if that wicked prelate is the Supreme Pontiff.

The TLM is being reined in because Francis is a hateful, spiteful man. If bad apples were the standard, there's be a lot more clear areas to focus on.
Redstone
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If you want to directly connect TLM with ANY materialist or mystical ideology, including Nazism which explicitly rejected TLM, then do a better job.

But you won't because you can't. TLM practice is very clear on opinions on most things, including other "faiths." Which is repent and join.

Notice, posters and lurkers, how there is no detailed or direct connection made to TLM and right-wing nefarious whatever? This is because it's impossible. Even as many of right-wingers, including me, appreciate the TLM. OK.

Now, can you smear beyond that?

And I'm waiting for someone to bring up "anti-Semitism." Go ahead. Let's discuss in detail.
PabloSerna
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Wicked huh? Judge not my friend...
PabloSerna
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Well I have made a point about something that I do see as a concern in our Church. Whether you can see it or not, the point remains.

edit to add:

In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. (#14)

The connection is this: How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?

I am making an opinion here - they were not living out the message of the gospel. Vatican II, is centered on addressing this first and foremost because it recognized at that time - that this was the case for many of the flock. So they sought to address this with liturgical reforms among other modifications. In short, we all need to get on the same page and stop bickering about the location of the tabernacle, if you know what I mean.
Redstone
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Quote:

The connection is this: How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil?


Obviously they shouldn't - exact same principle, by the way, as extreme leftist symbols, sadly somewhat common in Latin America….which I'm sure you would also correctly condemn.

As to Vatican II and it's intention / impact here, that's a somewhat separate question I'd be happy to discuss if you wish.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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PabloSerna said:

Well I have made a point about something that I do see as a concern in our Church. Whether you can see it or not, the point remains.

edit to add:

In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. (#14)

The connection is this: How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?

I am making an opinion here - they were not living out the message of the gospel. Vatican II, is centered on addressing this first and foremost because it recognized at that time - that this was the case for many of the flock. So they sought to address this with liturgical reforms among other modifications. In short, we all need to get on the same page and stop bickering about the location of the tabernacle, if you know what I mean.


I'll play.

1. The person in the coffin is dead.
2. Nothing in the article states that the person in the coffin asked that a Nazi flag be draped on his coffin after he died.
3. The person in the coffin is dead.

But, let's see where your sentiments might lead us. You said " How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?" I think I generally agree with you.

And along those same lines i assume that you would agree that no faithful Catholic could ever vote for a politician who supports the so-called "right" to have their unborn child murdered?
Serotonin
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

PabloSerna said:

Well I have made a point about something that I do see as a concern in our Church. Whether you can see it or not, the point remains.

edit to add:

In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. (#14)

The connection is this: How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?

I am making an opinion here - they were not living out the message of the gospel. Vatican II, is centered on addressing this first and foremost because it recognized at that time - that this was the case for many of the flock. So they sought to address this with liturgical reforms among other modifications. In short, we all need to get on the same page and stop bickering about the location of the tabernacle, if you know what I mean.


I'll play.

1. The person in the coffin is dead.
2. Nothing in the article states that the person in the coffin asked that a Nazi flag be draped on his coffin after he died.
3. The person in the coffin is dead.

But, let's see where your sentiments might lead us. You said " How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?" I think I generally agree with you.

And along those same lines i assume that you would agree that no faithful Catholic could ever vote for a politician who supports the so-called "right" to have their unborn child murdered?
This is a horrible comparison.

There hasn't been a single abortion since 1945 and public support of abortion in business or politics would be career suicide.

But Nazi violence is happening every day across the world and half the political establishment strongly supports it.

That's why Pablo is rightly focused on Nazis and not abortions.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
Serotonin said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

PabloSerna said:

Well I have made a point about something that I do see as a concern in our Church. Whether you can see it or not, the point remains.

edit to add:

In order that the Christian people may more certainly derive an abundance of graces from the sacred liturgy, holy Mother Church desires to undertake with great care a general restoration of the liturgy itself. (#14)

The connection is this: How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?

I am making an opinion here - they were not living out the message of the gospel. Vatican II, is centered on addressing this first and foremost because it recognized at that time - that this was the case for many of the flock. So they sought to address this with liturgical reforms among other modifications. In short, we all need to get on the same page and stop bickering about the location of the tabernacle, if you know what I mean.


I'll play.

1. The person in the coffin is dead.
2. Nothing in the article states that the person in the coffin asked that a Nazi flag be draped on his coffin after he died.
3. The person in the coffin is dead.

But, let's see where your sentiments might lead us. You said " How can someone who professes a love for God and his Church, being laid to rest at a funeral mass, have their coffin draped with such a flag that represents pure evil? Even if it was outside of the church - who in their right mind, knowing the teachings of Jesus would do such a thing?" I think I generally agree with you.

And along those same lines i assume that you would agree that no faithful Catholic could ever vote for a politician who supports the so-called "right" to have their unborn child murdered?
This is a horrible comparison.

There hasn't been a single abortion since 1945 and public support of abortion in business or politics would be career suicide.

But Nazi violence is happening every day across the world and half the political establishment strongly supports it.

That's why Pablo is rightly focused on Nazis and not abortions.


NM
Serotonin
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AG
Meant to put the sarcasm winky face on my post.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
Serotonin said:

Meant to put the sarcasm winky face on my post.
Funny because I had a "my sarcasm meter is analog and rusty" response typed but then re-read and realized it had to be sarcasm.
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