Fishers of Men

2,470 Views | 14 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Zobel
Nasreddin
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I've always liked this turn of phrase that Jesus would make the fishermen fishers of men. However much I like it though, I've always been troubled as to whether this turn of phrase actually works in Jesus' original spoken language (Aramaic) or written language of the Bible (Greek). Any language scholars here that can expand on whether the "fishermen" and "fishers of men" "thing" works in the original language?

If it does, that's really something. If not, it's just a translator's addition.

And before: "it doesn't matter", perhaps it doesn't have any impact of the word of God, etc., but as I said, it's something that I always found a keen turn of phrase.
Zobel
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AG
It works in Greek but it isn't as pithy as it is English. They're not called "fishermen" in Greek but closer to fishers. The translation fishers of men is good. Only note is that men there is the plural of anthropos, mankind - not aner, man. So it's not fishers of many individual men, but fishers of all humanity.
Nasreddin
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Interesting. Thank you
Bird Poo
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AG
Zobel said:

It works in Greek but it isn't as pithy as it is English. They're not called "fishermen" in Greek but closer to fishers. The translation fishers of men is good. Only note is that men there is the plural of anthropos, mankind - not aner, man. So it's not fishers of many individual men, but fishers of all humanity.
Would be interesting if it was written that way. Fishers of humanity has a much deeper meaning in regards to evangelizing!
Zobel
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AG
Yeah but I probably need to correct myself to say that just because an author uses one word or another doesn't necessarily mean much. Sometimes they're synonyms and used as such. You'd really have to dig in to a particular author to see if they use them as technical terms. So don't take it as some deep revealed truth.
discobrob
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AG
Jesus is quoting Jeremiah.
bpchas2
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The term "fisher of men" was not new. For centuries, the Greek and Roman philosophers used it to describe one who catches others by teaching or persuasion. It was a term of vocation. Since the men were commercial fishermen, it is obvious why Jesus would use this analogy.
Zobel
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AG
Do you have any references for that?
discobrob
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AG
Centuries before Jesus said it, Jeremiah did. More likely Jesus' reference as the gospels are brimming with Old Testament allusion.
nortex97
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AG
Absolutely correct.

I can't find the history log post on it I read last year but it is among the earliest Christian symbologies found in many places in/about the Mediterranean as well, in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Decent article:


Quote:

Tertullian (c. 160-220) in his treatise on baptism, De Baptismo 1, reasons that as water sustains fish, "we, little fishes, after the image of our ichthus, Jesus Christ, are born in the water (of baptism) nor are we safe but by remaining in it."

By calling Christians "little fishes," Tertullian evokes Mark 1:16-18 where Jesus, the Big Fisherman, called fishermen to become fishers of men: "As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 'Come, follow me,' Jesus said, 'and I will make you fishers of men.' At once they left their nets and followed him."

Tertullian calls Jesus Christ "our ichthus." Ichthus is a Greek word meaning "fish." Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) who was the teacher of Origen recommends his readers have their personal seals engraved with either a dove or a fish. Pedagogus 3.11 Since Clement does not explain why he suggests a dove or a fish, it can be inferred that the symbols were common and needed no explanation.

…

Groups of individual letters of the Greek and Latin "alphabet," itself a word derived from the first two letters of the Greek alphabet (alpha and beta), have been found on ancient gravestones and in the catacombs.

The letters obviously meant something then, but defy translation now. If the meaning of the grouping of the letters "I-CH-TH-U-S" had not been preserved through the ages, it would, also, be mystifying.

Augustine of Hippo


Augustine (354-430) elaborates: "Of these five Greek words (Iesous, Christos, Theou, Uios, Soter), should you group together the letters, you would form the word ichthus, fish, the mystical name of Jesus the Christ who, in the abyss of our mortality, as though in the depths of the sea, was able to remain alive, that is, free from sin." The City of God 23

Symbols, allegories, acrostics, similes and metaphors are forms of poetic thought and must be caught rather than taught. One of the things Augustine was saying is that Jesus, the mystical Big Fish, was in the waters, in the sea of human mortality, yet He did not succumb to sin as we do but remained alive, remained free from sin, remained clean. (The fish has the added advantage of its association with baptismal water as well as its Greek acrostic resonance.) The early Christians caught it. And they comprehended that if Christians were fishers of men and, by induction, fishes, then Jesus who called them to be little fishes and fishermen would Himself be the Big Fish, the Ichthus. And, amazingly, this simple symbol, composed of two slanted lines, is meaningful enough and powerful enough that it is still used by Christians two thousand years later.Sandra Sweeny Silver
Not to get too pedantic but the Jeremiah passage, in Hebrew, and Jesus' likely spoken use/reference, probably in Aramaic, do go back to Babylonian/Egyptian cultural references…but I dunno about all of that. The gospels I think were widely studied/transmitted in Greek in the first few centuries, so it probably doesn't matter.
discobrob
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AG
To me, Jeremiah's context is what makes this so beautiful. Jeremiah is talking about bringing home the exiles. Jesus is saying, I'm fulfilling Jeremiah and using you to do it. My people are in spiritual exile. Let's bring them home.
Zobel
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AG
And the best part is the people he is talking about that are His people are…the gentiles.
dermdoc
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AG
Thanks for that. I learned something. And it is beautiful.
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discobrob
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AG
I would qualify that and say "his people" includes the gentiles. His people are all those who receive him, who believe in his name.
Zobel
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AG
That's the point, yes. As St Paul talks about in Romans, the lost tribes of Israel were disseminated into the nations, so by grafting the nations back in, all Israel is saved. In the end, all mankind and all Israel are one and the same - one people under one King. That's why St Paul can say to gentile converts in Corinth that "our fathers" were baptized into Moses, for example.
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