canadiaggie said:

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Fashionably Late said:

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Islam is a sect of Nestorian Christianity and yes Mohammed made it up.

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Almost all sects of Islam reject any sort of divine nature within Jesus, whether mono or dyophysite, so not too sure about that.

The few Shi'i sects that do have some sort of christological position insist that the divine nature inside Jesus is not eternal God himself but the first creation of God, the Light of God.

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Fashionably Late said:

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canadiaggie said:

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Fashionably Late said:

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Islam is a sect of Nestorian Christianity and yes Mohammed made it up.

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Almost all sects of Islam reject any sort of divine nature within Jesus, whether mono or dyophysite, so not too sure about that.

The few Shi'i sects that do have some sort of christological position insist that the divine nature inside Jesus is not eternal God himself but the first creation of God, the Light of God.

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Sorry, I meant a "bass" "turd" "ized" form of nestorian christianity that devolved through the game of telephone more or less. The homogeneity (although not perfect) between the angel Gabriel, the lady Maryam, Jesus, John the Baptist, and the age of Islam make more sense when seen as a spinoff of Christianity.

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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The History of Byzantium podcast did a great episode on the origins of Islam with Robert Spencer. It was a fascinating look at the archaelogical evidence of early Islam. It seems to have started out as an uber-tolerant fusion of Christianity, Judaism, and Arab nomad beliefs. He makes frequent references to early buildings and artifacts that have strong Islamic origin and clear Christian or Jewish symbolism He also makes a strong case that Islam as we know it started to become standardized with the Umayyad Caliphate, IIRC

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sorry, didn't know anything about Spencer other than he came across my feed as a podcast guest and the idea was interesting

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canadiaggie said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Sorry, didn't know anything about Spencer other than he came across my feed as a podcast guest and the idea was interesting

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Spencer gets some play on the podcast circuit, but what you're describing seems to be pretty much Donner's work re-phrased. Just pointing out the likely source material if you ever want to read it

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craigernaught said:

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Mind bottling

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Rongagin71 said:

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craigernaught said:

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Mind bottling

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I have a bottle of pickled boggles that I might sell cheap. Any bids?

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Here's a couple issues I have with Islam. I'm open to hearing a good discussion though.

They claim to be dovetailed into Abraham and thus a religion that claims to be of the same God as Christians. They consider Jesus a prophet, but lesser than. They miss the whole boat on who Jesus was, what he did, why he did it and how being anything less than the Incarnation just doesn't work. Furthermore, their isn't any need for further prophets as Gods work was done with Jesus. No need to rehash the same OT story. It's been fulfilled.

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Sapper Redux said:

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I've read the Quran and plenty of their history as well. I also dealt directly with many Muslims in Iraq. Your take is a political factual one, not one grounded in the debates about Islamic theology and the koran.

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While in Mecca, though he condemned paganism (for the most part), Muhammad showed great respect for the monotheism of the Christian and Jewish inhabitants. Indeed, the Allah of the Quran claimed to be the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians, who now revealed himself to the Arab people through his chosen messenger, Muhammad. It is the Quranic revelations that came later in Muhammad's career, after he and the first Muslims left Mecca for the city of Medina, that transformed Islam from a relatively benign form of monotheism into an expansionary, military-political ideology that persists to this day.

Orthodox Islam does not accept that a rendering of the Quran into another language is a "translation" in the way that, say, the King James Bible is a translation of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. A point often made by Islamic apologists to defang criticism is that only Arabic readers may understand the Quran. But Arabic is a language like any other and fully capable of translation. Indeed, most Muslims are not Arabic readers. In the below analysis, we use a translation of the Quran by two Muslim scholars, which may be found here. All parenthetical explanations in the text are those of the translators save for my interjections in braces, { }.

Those Westerners who manage to pick up a translation of the Quran are often left bewildered as to its meaning thanks to ignorance of a critically important principle of Quranic interpretation known as "abrogation." The principle of abrogation al-naskh wa al-mansukh (the abrogating and the abrogated) directs that verses revealed later in Muhammad's career "abrogate" i.e., cancel and replace earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Thus, passages revealed later in Muhammad's career, in Medina, overrule passages revealed earlier, in Mecca.

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...In contrast, take 9:5, commonly referred to as the "Verse of the Sword", revealed toward the end of Muhammad's life:

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9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

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Having been revealed later in Muhammad's life than 50:45, 109, and 2:256, the Verse of the Sword abrogates their peaceful injunctions in accordance with 2:106. Sura 8, revealed shortly before Sura 9, reveals a similar theme:

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8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).

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The Quran's commandments to Muslims to wage war in the name of Allah against non-Muslims are unmistakable. They are, furthermore, absolutely authoritative as they were revealed late in the Prophet's career and so cancel and replace earlier instructions to act peaceably. Without knowledge of the principle of abrogation, Westerners will continue to misread the Quran and misdiagnose Islam as a "religion of peace."

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Here's a couple issues I have with Islam. I'm open to hearing a good discussion though.

They claim to be dovetailed into Abraham and thus a religion that claims to be of the same God as Christians. They consider Jesus a prophet, but lesser than. They miss the whole boat on who Jesus was, what he did, why he did it and how being anything less than the Incarnation just doesn't work. Furthermore, their isn't any need for further prophets as Gods work was done with Jesus. No need to rehash the same OT story. It's been fulfilled.

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You don't need to be saved if there is no sin to atone for. Everyone is born ma'sum, or pure and innocent.

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