American Gospel: Christ Alone

8,222 Views | 121 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by diehard03
Zobel
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AG
Justification and being made righteous are literally the same thing.
dermdoc
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Mrs. Lovelight said:

Wakesurfer817 said:

"The five solas provide wonderful clarity about the crux of the Reformation and the heart of the gospel, if the clause that the five prepositional phrases modify is "Justification before God is. . ." Justification before God is by grace alone, with no merited favor whatever; on the basis of Christ alone, with no other sacrifice or righteousness as the foundation; through the means of faith alone, not including any human works whatsoever; to the end that all things lead ultimately to the glory of God alone; as taught with final and decisive authority in the Scriptures alone."

Now - you might not be a Reformed Christian, and so you might disagree with some or all of the 5 Solas. What you can't disagree with is how the Reformers framed them, i.e. as particularly related to justification.

I would also say (as would Piper) that a Believer can't ignore James 2:

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder."

I would be curious to know how you harmonize the Solas with James 2 (and many other scriptural references that refer to the sanctification of a Believer).


I agree with the Solas, I think they are a good summation of Reformed doctrine of justification. As for James 2, I think the idea that James is getting at is if you are a believer you will have works. That is all. He's essentially saying 'I can't see your faith but I can see your deeds as evidence of your faith'.

I don't need to harmonize the Solas with James because I don't see any conflict between the two.
Agree completely. People forget James is talking to believers who have already been justified. He is not questioning their salvation like Piper does. He is merely exhorting them which is good.
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ExtremeRush
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Mrs. Lovelight said:

Quote:


    In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne, and we are saved through that fruit and that faith. As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, "God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

Quote:

  • These works of faith, and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for our final salvation.

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-really-save-us-by-faith-alone

I was quite shocked when I found out Piper held this view, because he was so good against some of the FV proponents. Disappointing and sad.

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/will-we-be-finally-saved-by-faith-alone

Good article from Piper with further details on his stance here.
Wakesurfer817
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Thanks for posting. Great read.
dermdoc
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Disagree with Piper's soteriology.

He is saying that unless there are demonstrable works then there is no salvation.

The problem with that is who defines the works? How many works are required?

Which of course opens up the tendency for judgement by Christian's who is saved and who is not really saved.

And guys like Piper and Macarthur usually end up setting requirements that they think are necessary. Piper has also stated one could lose their salvation if they do not "persevere". What does that mean? Define it for me pastor.

To me it is very dangerous to add anything to salvation than the finished work of Jesus.

Only God knows the heart. And whose are His.

With that being sad, folks who believe this theology are brothers and sisters in Christ. And will inherit the Kingdom .
The Gospel is a lot better news than they are preaching imho.



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diehard03
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Same drumbeat, different day.

These have all been answered. They would agree wholeheartedly agree with "Only God knows the heart. And whose are his". They don't believe they are adding anything to the gospel.
dermdoc
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diehard03 said:

Same drumbeat, different day.

These have all been answered. They would agree wholeheartedly agree with "Only God knows the heart. And whose are his". They don't believe they are adding anything to the gospel.
And I and others believe they are adding to the gospel. Mrs. Love light has, I believe, posted the same thing on here.

My purpose is that I do not want young believers to be frightened by a works based salvation.

Merry Christmas!
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Wakesurfer817
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dermdoc said:

Disagree with Piper's soteriology.

He is saying that unless there are demonstrable works then there is no salvation.

The problem with that is who defines the works? How many works are required?

Which of course opens up the tendency for judgement by Christian's who is saved and who is not really saved.

And guys like Piper and Macarthur usually end up setting requirements that they think are necessary. Piper has also stated one could lose their salvation if they do not "persevere". What does that mean? Define it for me pastor.

To me it is very dangerous to add anything to salvation than the finished work of Jesus.

Only God knows the heart. And whose are His.

With that being sad, folks who believe this theology are brothers and sisters in Christ. And will inherit the Kingdom .
The Gospel is a lot better news than they are preaching imho.






You are kind to say so, friend. I am glad to serve our Lord alongside you. Blessings to you and yours. Merry Christmas!
diehard03
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Quote:

And I and others believe they are adding to the gospel. Mrs. Love light has, I believe, posted the same thing on here.

My purpose is that I do not want young believers to be frightened by a works based salvation.

it's a strange way to live out that purpose, and you have to balance that with James words of caution about a faith that does not lead to good works.

it must give Catholics a good chuckle that they aren't the ones accused of preaching a works-based salvation this time.
PA24
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

And I and others believe they are adding to the gospel. Mrs. Love light has, I believe, posted the same thing on here.

My purpose is that I do not want young believers to be frightened by a works based salvation.

it's a strange way to live out that purpose, and you have to balance that with James words of caution about a faith that does not lead to good works.

it must give Catholics a good chuckle that they aren't the ones accused of preaching a works-based salvation this time.
His mind is made up on Calvinist teachings, working for their salvation, he saves many a young man from watching John MacArthur, the silver tongue devil.

Just a little kidding, in these crazy times we need all believers of Jesus to stand strong in their faith. Dr. Dem is a blessed man.
dermdoc
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PA24 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

And I and others believe they are adding to the gospel. Mrs. Love light has, I believe, posted the same thing on here.

My purpose is that I do not want young believers to be frightened by a works based salvation.

it's a strange way to live out that purpose, and you have to balance that with James words of caution about a faith that does not lead to good works.

it must give Catholics a good chuckle that they aren't the ones accused of preaching a works-based salvation this time.
His mind is made up on Calvinist teachings, working for their salvation, he saves many a young man from watching John MacArthur, the silver tongue devil.

Just a little kidding, in these crazy times we need all believers of Jesus to stand strong in their faith. Dr. Dem is a blessed man.


Thanks and so are all of y'all. As I stated, I firmly believe all that love the Lord and call on His name will be saved.

An inclusive Gospel, not an exclusive one. God is love and loves us as revealed through Jesus.
Gospel means good news. Not damnation.

Merry Christmas!
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ExtremeRush
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dermdoc said:

PA24 said:

diehard03 said:

Quote:

And I and others believe they are adding to the gospel. Mrs. Love light has, I believe, posted the same thing on here.

My purpose is that I do not want young believers to be frightened by a works based salvation.

it's a strange way to live out that purpose, and you have to balance that with James words of caution about a faith that does not lead to good works.

it must give Catholics a good chuckle that they aren't the ones accused of preaching a works-based salvation this time.
His mind is made up on Calvinist teachings, working for their salvation, he saves many a young man from watching John MacArthur, the silver tongue devil.

Just a little kidding, in these crazy times we need all believers of Jesus to stand strong in their faith. Dr. Dem is a blessed man.


Thanks and so are all of y'all. As I stated, I firmly believe all that love the Lord and call on His name will be saved.

An inclusive Gospel, not an exclusive one. God is love and loves us as revealed through Jesus.
Gospel means good news. Not damnation.

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!!
Texasclipper
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I've heard some of Macarthur's sermons and I don't see any "good news" in them at all. There is no assurance of Salvation. He makes it sound like there is sin, which Jesus covered. And then there's SIN which if you love Jesus you won't do and if you do it, you don't love Jesus and don't really believe so you are going to hell.

It appears Macarthur gets to decide what is sin and what is SIN. He never mentions that the thief on the cross was saved for BELIEVING. There are numerous verses where it is said "who so ever believes in their heart" is saved.

If someone is the least bit OCD and they believed Macarthur, they would be in a constant worry about going to hell. Am I doing enough? Am I not repenting for EVERYTHING? Do i really believe? Are these works good enough? I thought bad thoughts about that girl in the tight jeans, did i lose my salvation? I gossiped about my co-worker, am I not part of the elect?

If one feels no conviction for their sin, then yes, they may not be saved. But all this extra stuff that Macarthur adds to it is depressing and would make non-believers who are wanting to believe think "what's the point"?

We all (even Macarthur) SIN constantly and have no hope of meeting God's perfect standard. That's why Christ did what he did.

dermdoc
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Texasclipper said:

I've heard some of Macarthur's sermons and I don't see any "good news" in them at all. There is no assurance of Salvation. He makes it sound like there is sin, which Jesus covered. And then there's SIN which if you love Jesus you won't do and if you do it, you don't love Jesus and don't really believe so you are going to hell.

It appears Macarthur gets to decide what is sin and what is SIN. He never mentions that the thief on the cross was saved for BELIEVING. There are numerous verses where it is said "who so ever believes in their heart" is saved.

If someone is the least bit OCD and they believed Macarthur, they would be in a constant worry about going to hell. Am I doing enough? Am I not repenting for EVERYTHING? Do i really believe? Are these works good enough? I thought bad thoughts about that girl in the tight jeans, did i lose my salvation? I gossiped about my co-worker, am I not part of the elect?

If one feels no conviction for their sin, then yes, they may not be saved. But all this extra stuff that Macarthur adds to it is depressing and would make non-believers who are wanting to believe think "what's the point"?

We all (even Macarthur) SIN constantly and have no hope of meeting God's perfect standard. That's why Christ did what he did.


Agree. Rest in the finished work of Jesus. Not the works of me.

And being OCD, I have been exactly where you describe. Almost paralyzed by the constant fear of hell.

Praise the Lord that He has given me His peace.
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diehard03
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Quote:

We all (even Macarthur) SIN constantly and have no hope of meeting God's perfect standard. That's why Christ did what he did.

See, you already have the "T" in TULIP down. Just 4 more letters to go.

You're closer to Macarthur than you think.
dermdoc
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diehard03 said:

Quote:

We all (even Macarthur) SIN constantly and have no hope of meeting God's perfect standard. That's why Christ did what he did.

See, you already have the "T" in TULIP down. Just 4 more letters to go.

You're closer to Macarthur than you think.
Actually the poster did not make the distinction whether he felt he came to that realization by his free will or that he had nothing to do with it due to his total depravity.

Now do the "L".

And for the record, I do not think Macarthur's and Piper's Lordship Salvation is really traditional Calvinism. But that is just me.

Happy New Year my friend!

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diehard03
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Quote:

Actually the poster did not make the distinction whether he felt he came to that realization by his free will or that he had nothing to do with it due to his total depravity.

Now do the "L".

And for the record, I do not think Macarthur's and Piper's Lordship Salvation is really traditional Calvinism. But that is just me.

Happy New Year my friend!

Same to you, kind sir!

You know that slope is slippery! Once you agree to Total Depravity, the others are right behind.
 
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