OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED said:

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1 Corinthians 15:58 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong

Romans 2: 6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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codker92 said:

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OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED said:

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1 Corinthians 15:58 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong

Romans 2: 6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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Keep your white guilt. I will stick to the honor system.

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dermdoc said:

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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dermdoc said:

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Acts 16:31
Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved - you and your household.

Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.

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Well...

"…But someone will say, "You have faith and I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. [url=https://biblehub.com/greek/4771.htm][/url]You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatand shudder.[url=https://biblehub.com/greek/5425.htm][/url] O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?…"


- James 2:18ish - 20ish

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James was talking to believers. Christians who had already been saved. I am all for works. I think we should be very cautious judging other Christians based upon our view of their works.

And it gets to be a pretty slippery slope. What works? How many works are enough? Who defines that?

I find it interesting that Calvinist leaders like MacArthur and Piper emphasize the need for works(that they usually define)to prove to them and other Christians that you are one of the elect.

For all the bluster, it is very similar to Catholic theology except for the Pope. Of course that makes sense as it is all based on Augustine's theology.

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OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED said:

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This is the most inaccurate part of your post due to a misunderstanding of terminology:

"Eternal life is used in the NT as a destination for believers and at times as a reward for obedience. If one interprets this as, only those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality go to heaven. the rest of Romans tells us that no one does this. No one seeks God or does good. followed by....

4 Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.""

The "works" Paul is referring here is works of the law, not good works. This confounds two separate subjects. This is the very common error on this matter of faith and works. Your logical deduction would be correct if Paul were speaking here of good works, but he is not.

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dermdoc said:

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Oh I agree. We are supposed to constantly examine ourselves to ensure that we are doing what God's will is for our life. And we should pray for wisdom and discernment about all that.

The problem is when Christians start judging other Christians based upon what they think are appropriate works for the other Christians.

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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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dermdoc said:

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Oh I agree. We are supposed to constantly examine ourselves to ensure that we are doing what God's will is for our life. And we should pray for wisdom and discernment about all that.

The problem is when Christians start judging other Christians based upon what they think are appropriate works for the other Christians.

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Judging or discerning is not the issue, it is being hypocritical judges. The whole bit about the speck in your brothers eye and the plank in your own and all that:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

If we were not supposed to judge or discern, Jesus wouldn't say "By their fruit you shall know them":

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

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Quote:

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The "works" Paul is referring here is works of the law, not good works. This confounds two separate subjects. This is the very common error on this matter of faith and works. Your logical deduction would be correct if Paul were speaking here of good works, but he is not.

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Orthodox Texan said:

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"Regarding the debate about faith and works: It's like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important."
C. S. Lewis

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DirtDiver said:

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It's not an "either-or" it's a "both-and"

Paul argues that those who do not have the law are as guilty as those with the law. All are under sin. The works of the law AND goods deeds, acts of obedience by those who do not have the law both do not save. People are saved apart from works (works of the law or good works) by faith in Jesus.

He states this in multiple ways throughout his letters. Notice the commands below are written to believers who are already saved. These saved people need reminders to obey..Verse 1, makes the case that God saved them on the basis of grace apart from righteous deeds.

Titus 3 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed, 2 to slander no one, not to be contentious, to be gentle, showing every consideration for all people. 3 For we too were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He richly poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

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PaulTony said:

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Wow - Read all of chapter 15 1st Cor, it is all about Gods work, death and resurrection, verse 58 is the conclusion abide in that work, it wont be in vain. The Lords work.

You have to read more than a verse to get the context.

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OLD MAN, INTERRUPTED said:

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1 Corinthians 15:58 ESV / 22 helpful votes
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

1 Timothy 5:8

But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong

Romans 2: 6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

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