...to his old, pure, self?

Is it possible that God transformed Lucifer into Satan and 1/3 of his angels into demons in order to teach and test us?

One reason I believe that this is POSSIBLE is because Jesus said that a good tree cannot bear bad fruit. Matthew 7:18.

If it's true that Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God, then it would seem that Jesus' statement is incorrect.

Of course, it's entirely possible that I lack understanding.

Thoughts?

Hi Barnesy.

Potcake said:

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Hi Barnesy.

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Huh?

Satan is a title - "The Accuser"

Lucifer is a Seraphim angel of the highest order, whose name means "light bringer, the morning star". A fallen angel who choose "not to serve" in God's plan of salvation.

I don't think Lucifer will change his** mind anytime soon since they are outside of time as we know it.

** Angels have no gender. Pure spirits.

+++

God does allow fallen angels (demons) to test us as exorcist, Fr. Rippenger tells it...

PabloSerna said:

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Satan is a title - "The Accuser"

Lucifer is a Seraphim angel of the highest order, whose name means "light bringer, the morning star". A fallen angel who choose "not to serve" in God's plan of salvation.

I don't think Lucifer will change his** mind anytime soon since they are outside of time as we know it.

+++

** Angels have no gender. Pure spirits.

---

But Jesus said that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. God produced Lucifer, who is a bad fruit. Perhaps I am misunderstanding something and maybe someone can help me to understand where I'm going wrong on this. Thanks in advance.

define produced.

then define freewill.

PabloSerna said:

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define produced.

then define freewill.

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Well, God created Lucifer, right? God is a "good" tree, right? Lucifer is a "bad" fruit, right? Where am I going wrong?

So what aspect of God did he impart into Lucifer? God has no body, God is. For me, I understand that we have a soul that "is" an aspect of God. We also were given freewill. We were made good just as it is written, however, we have a fallen nature that is a product of original sin. Lucifer is no different. Came into being by the will of God. Given a free will and in his pride rebelled at the idea of serving man. So the two are distinct, creation and freewill. They are also complimentary. That is why one of the greatest acts we can do is to say "thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." HTH

PabloSerna said:

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So what aspect of God did he impart into Lucifer? God has no body, God is. For me, I understand that we have a soul that "is" an aspect of God. We also were given freewill. We were made good just as it is written, however, we have a fallen nature that is a product of original sin. Lucifer is no different. Came into being by the will of God. Given a free will and in his pride rebelled at the idea of serving man. So the two are distinct, creation and freewill. They are also complimentary. That is why one of the greatest acts we can do is to say "thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." HTH

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I truly appreciate your perspective and feedback. At the risk of coming off as "argumentative", this still does not answer how a "good" tree could produce a "bad" fruit in Lucifer.

I think you are making the case for why many don't believe in hell. I won't stop you :-)

EDIT to clarify that I believe God does not trick us into hell (being apart from him) rather we freely choose it.

PabloSerna said:

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I think you are making the case for why many don't believe in hell. I won't stop you :-)

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I believe in Hell but it's my understanding that nobody is there, yet. Hell is a place of eternal torment and suffering. I am not convinced that Lucifer will go there but Satan might, meaning, the evil will be removed/destroyed.

At the risk of sounding crass myself, it sounds like you have figured out all matters of God and of existence. Congratulations.

Not at all. I guess I found a verse that is in line with what I have been saying all along:

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." JN 15:5

God does create good. But he gives us and he gave the angels freewill. Lucifer choose NOT to abide in God - plain and simple.

PabloSerna said:

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Not at all. I guess I found a verse that is in line with what I have been saying all along:

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." JN 15:5

God does create good. But he gives us and he gave the angels freewill. Lucifer choose NOT to abide in God - plain and simple.

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Ok. Thank you.

Why do you say "Satan might"? Do you think the two are different beings?

PabloSerna said:

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Why do you say "Satan might"? Do you think the two are different beings?

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I'm wondering if God temporarily transformed Lucifer into Satan and that, in the end, God will transform him back to what he was previously and that Satan will cease to exist. I guess we'll find out for sure in the hereafter.

I will add that it sounds beyond insane that Lucifer, who knew that God was the creator of him and everything in existence, would rebel against God and that 1/3 of the angels would join in the rebellion, particularly when he had to know that, ultimately, he might be destroyed for it. After all, with simply a thought, God could make Lucifer no longer exist. To rebel against the creator is an incredibly irrational thing to do. Is Lucifer really that irrational?

So I take it you are not Catholic.

Catholics believe in a particular judgement (CCC1022) and a general judgement (the second coming). At our particular judgement, we will be accused by "Satan" on why we do not deserve heaven. This is why Catholics go to confession, because those sins are forgiven and only reparation of those sins remains. Think about it like this - suppose you are playing baseball with your friends and you smash a home run into your neighbor's window - breaking it! You go and "confess" and receive forgiveness. All that remains is for you to cut the grass to make reparations for the damage done.

We call that state of purification - purgatory.

Once we have been made clean - now can we enter heaven!

So for many of us Catholics, Satan and Lucifer are one and the same.

M1Buckeye said:

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I will add that it sounds beyond insane that Lucifer, who knew that God was the creator of him and everything in existence, would rebel against God and that 1/3 of the angels would join in the rebellion, particularly when he had to know that, ultimately, he might be destroyed for it. After all, with simply a thought, God could make Lucifer no longer exist. To rebel against the creator is an incredibly irrational thing to do. Is Lucifer really that irrational?

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Pride was Lucifer's sin.

Michael, an Archangel (a lower choir), whose name comes from the Hebrew (Mikha'el) meaning "who is like God?". This is a rhetorical question, implying none are like God. This was the battle cry that took out Lucifer and 1/3 of the Angels.

From what I have read (Aquinas) Lucifer was the highest angel created by God. I am sure it hurt God when Lucifer said he would "not serve" in God's plan of salvation. However, God gave Lucifer and all angels freewill. As I said, not all choose to abide in God.

PabloSerna said:

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So I take it you are not Catholic.

Catholics believe in a particular judgement (CCC1022) and a general judgement (the second coming). At our particular judgement, we will be accused by "Satan" on why we do not deserve heaven. This is why Catholics go to confession, because those sins are forgiven and only reparation of those sins remains. Think about it like this - suppose you are playing baseball with your friends and you smash a home run into your neighbor's window - breaking it! You go and "confess" and receive forgiveness. All that remains is for you to cut the grass to make reparations for the damage done.

We call that state of purification - purgatory.

Once we have been made clean - now can we enter heaven!

So for many of us Catholics, Satan and Lucifer are one and the same.

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Is there any biblical evidence that Satan will argue against our entry into Heaven?

Revelation 12:10

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

+++

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan[a] standing at his right side to accuse him. - Zechariah 3:1-4

+++

PabloSerna said:

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So I take it you are not Catholic.

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Not anymore.

PabloSerna said:

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Revelation 12:10

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

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Thank you.

PabloSerna said:

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Revelation 12:10

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

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Sometimes I like to put these verses into the YouTube search engine and then listen to preachers discuss them when I put my head down on my pillow at night. As John MacArthur says, Christians thirst for the word of God.

M1Buckeye said:

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PabloSerna said:

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So I take it you are not Catholic.

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Not anymore.

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How did you deal with the Real Presence in the Eucharist? Knowing what I know, I could never leave. I think it was Peter that said, "Lord to whom would we go? You have the words of everlasting life." JN 6:68. After the saddest verse in all the bible, JN 6:66 "From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him."

Lucifer is not all knowing. BTW

PabloSerna said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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PabloSerna said:

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So I take it you are not Catholic.

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Not anymore.

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How did you deal with the Real Presence in the Eucharist? Knowing what I know, I could never leave. I think it was Peter that said, "Lord to whom would we go? You have the words of everlasting life." JN 6:68. After the saddest verse in all the bible, JN 6:66 "From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him."

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I believe the eucharist is symbolic. I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. I follow Christ, or so I believe. I don't believe that missing the eucharist and the wine is detrimental to my relationship with Jesus nor to my salvation. Am I wrong?

PabloSerna said:

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Lucifer is not all knowing. BTW

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The only being that is all knowing is God. Not even Jesus is all knowing.

M1Buckeye said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Lucifer is not all knowing. BTW

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The only being that is all knowing is God. Not even Jesus is all knowing.

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I can see why you were able to leave the Catholic Church. God bless and drive on!

PabloSerna said:

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M1Buckeye said:

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PabloSerna said:

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Lucifer is not all knowing. BTW

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The only being that is all knowing is God. Not even Jesus is all knowing.

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I can see why you were able to leave the Catholic Church. God bless and drive on!

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It's true, Jesus himself said that he is not all-knowing.

Matthew 24:35-37
No One Knows When Jesus Will Come Again
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 36 But no one knows the day or the hour. No! Not even the angels in heaven know. The Son does not know. Only the Father knows.