I don't see how this helps you. Why does suffering with some people going to heaven justify the suffering more than suffering with eternal suffering on top of it?

kurt vonnegut said:

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Also. . . . I have an objection to the idea that babies or children get a free pass to Heaven.

Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.

Anyway, it just seems too simple to say that children go to Heaven. That child is a human being, who should they be spared from the car accident, could grow up to be a truly terrible human being. Yet they will be rewarded with an infinity in Heaven.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. . . .I suppose it can just be counted as another reason why I object to anyone answering any of these questions with anything other than 'I don't know'.

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Kurt, 51 year old Christian here and I'll admit I still got plenty of "I don't knows" in me. There are things I've given up trying to figure out and just go on faith.

88Warrior said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Also. . . . I have an objection to the idea that babies or children get a free pass to Heaven.

Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.

Anyway, it just seems too simple to say that children go to Heaven. That child is a human being, who should they be spared from the car accident, could grow up to be a truly terrible human being. Yet they will be rewarded with an infinity in Heaven.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. . . .I suppose it can just be counted as another reason why I object to anyone answering any of these questions with anything other than 'I don't know'.

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Kurt, 51 year old Christian here and I'll admit I still got plenty of "I don't knows" in me. There are things I've given up trying to figure out and just go on faith.

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Amen.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Also. . . . I have an objection to the idea that babies or children get a free pass to Heaven.

Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.

Anyway, it just seems too simple to say that children go to Heaven. That child is a human being, who should they be spared from the car accident, could grow up to be a truly terrible human being. Yet they will be rewarded with an infinity in Heaven.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. . . .I suppose it can just be counted as another reason why I object to anyone answering any of these questions with anything other than 'I don't know'.

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Kurt,

Everyone gets a free pass to Heaven and no one deserves it. That is the beauty of it.

Who am I to sneer at God for whom he lets into heaven when his justice proves us all unfit, but his mercy covers all freely.

Just to head off the next question: I don't believe in eternal conscious torment. I believe those who have rejected God will just cease to exist and return to dust like atheist's believe we all will. Who knows if there is a final chance to turn towards God when he reveals himself in glory.

Aggrad08 said:

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I don't see how this helps you. Why does suffering with some people going to heaven justify the suffering more than suffering with eternal suffering on top of it?

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Good point. Also, I don't ascribe to the idea of eternal suffering

Dad-O-Lot said:

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Jesus said:

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Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

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I am in no position to determine or dictate how that "except through me" happens.

I trust in the Mercy of God who knows the heart of every man.

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I agree completely.

If you believe that Jesus, when he was dead, beat death even for the dead, then Jesus's line of 'except through me' does not limit Jesus to just those who have lived and heard about Christ.

kurt vonnegut said:

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88Warrior said:

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Kurt, 51 year old Christian here and I'll admit I still got plenty of "I don't knows" in me. There are things I've given up trying to figure out and just go on faith.

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I get that - I really do. I think at some point I hit a point of too many 'I don't knows' or at least big enough 'I don't knows' that I couldn't in good conscience continue on faith.

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Understood. I wish you well and pray that God reveals himself to you and others one day as he did to me so many years ago.

kurt vonnegut said:

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Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.

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I agree. I think there is more to it.

one MEEN Ag said:

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I don't believe in eternal conscious torment. I believe those who have rejected God will just cease to exist and return to dust like atheist's believe we all will. Who knows if there is a final chance to turn towards God when he reveals himself in glory.

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I'm inclined to agree with you.

The Bible frequently speaks of two types of people, those that are of God and those that are of Satan. I definitely see that in the world today. The prominent belief among Christians is that, upon death, one either goes to Heaven or to Hell and that there is no in-between, aka "purgatory" wherein a "bad" person is granted mercy and the opportunity to learn and work their way into God's good graces. I believe it's very possible and even probable that "lost" souls have a pathway to redemption in the hereafter.

I see what you're saying, but doesn't your argument depend on there being some way to work your way to heaven? A guy can be a terrible person or just a kinda bad person or a sorta good dude, but he still falls short of admission in all those situations. Isn't that the story of the gospel - that we all fall short and someone paid the price of admission for us? That all we have to do is accept it?

The problem is that to accept something, it must be an action based on known facts. You can't accept something without knowing what you're accepting.

And now I've just left more questions than answers. Forgive me.

Pinochet said:

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I see what you're saying, but doesn't your argument depend on there being some way to work your way to heaven? A guy can be a terrible person or just a kinda bad person or a sorta good dude, but he still falls short of admission in all those situations. Isn't that the story of the gospel - that we all fall short and someone paid the price of admission for us? That all we have to do is accept it?

The problem is that to accept something, it must be an action based on known facts. You can't accept something without knowing what you're accepting.

And now I've just left more questions than answers. Forgive me.

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As a follower of Christ, I believe that we need to at least TRY to follow the example of Christ. Love one another. Forgive one another. Help others when you can. Don't be a liar or a cheat or a thief. Don't commit egregious sins.

People like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden, who claim to be "devout" Christians, don't follow Christ at all. They lie and cheat daily and have done so all their lives. Unless they repent and publicly confess their sins and crimes, I believe they will have a very different experience in the afterlife than true Christians.

Pinochet said:

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The problem is that to accept something, it must be an action based on known facts. You can't accept something without knowing what you're accepting.

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I generally agree. This is exactly why I don't buy the argument that assumes that the Christian God is real and that the 2/3 of the planet that does not believe in the Christian God has rejected Him. The whole idea of being judged based on which religion or beliefs we were born into and decided to follow in life is horribly flawed.

There is something called the Great White Throne judgment and it is my understanding that souls can be saved there, such as people who didn't know of Jesus but who were mostly moral.

M1Buckeye said:

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There is something called the Great White Throne judgment and it is my understanding that souls can be saved there, such as people who didn't know of Jesus but who were mostly moral.

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That seems like a more reasonable way to judge someone than just purely based on which religion they followed in life.

But, would that throne of judgement also take into consideration those that were mostly moral and knew of Jesus, and just were not convinced the story was true? Consider Ghandi.

Also, morality often is a product of that religion the person practices. The good man isolated in the Amazon might be considered to be kind and grateful and many other good things. He might also involve himself in manner of behaviors that you would find immoral, but were perfectly 'right' to him because that is what he was taught.

At the point where we apply every nuance to the judgement procedure that we account for what the person knew of Jesus, when they were born, where they were born, what culture they lived in, and on and on. . . . can we eventually get to a place where nothing in life really mattered?

M1Buckeye said:

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There is something called the Great White Throne judgment and it is my understanding that souls can be saved there, such as people who didn't know of Jesus but who were mostly moral.

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Believers go in front of Christ at the Bema seat. Their names are in the Book of Life. Their eternal destiny in the New Jerusalem is assured and they are rewarded for their fruits.

The great white throne judgement is for non believers. I am unsure as to how judgement occurs here and it is totally up to God.

The problem with a "good" man and/or a "good" life is that the Bible makes clear that without the blood of Jesus we can not appear righteous before God.

This is where one's view of the atonement is so important. I believe in the Christus Victor model where the atonement was for all and for all creation. The atonement is only limited by man, not by God. I am unsure how that affects non believers salvation.

And I think that it is more than just being raised in the right religion or church. I think Christ pursues all people. Even if they do not know the name Jesus.

We have been blessed to hear the Gospel. It is our choice.

In my opinion, the purpose of life is to glorify God by producing fruit.

And I fully trust God to sort out all the variables of culture, place of birth, etc.

Paul sums it up well in Galatians 2:15

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles, know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So, we too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

I think the Bible gives us enough information to conclude the following:

1. God is Good. Primary example: Observe the life of Jesus. What did He do and how did He spend His time?
2. God is Holy. Sin does not go unnoticed.
3. God has all of the information when He judges. your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
4. God is merciful and gracious towards sinners: "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?" 31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners."
5. God is not fair in the way we would judge fairness. We are not all born with equal resources, information, etc. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

We may not have all of the information on how God will judge a person who has seen general revelation and not specific revelation however we do have enough information to determine that no one will be judged according to an improper scale

kurt vonnegut said:

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Pinochet said:

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The problem is that to accept something, it must be an action based on known facts. You can't accept something without knowing what you're accepting.

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I generally agree. This is exactly why I don't buy the argument that assumes that the Christian God is real and that the 2/3 of the planet that does not believe in the Christian God has rejected Him. The whole idea of being judged based on which religion or beliefs we were born into and decided to follow in life is horribly flawed.

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I don't think that is what the "Christian God" is all about.

I know this question was asked of Christianity, but the mainstream Islamic position on this varies.

One, there is no need for salvation. You don't have to accept anyone as your lord and savior because you don't need saving. You are born pure and innocent. Nobody's actions are your responsibility on the Last Day save your own.

However, there is a question of also acknowledging and worshipping the creator and how you do it.

Following from this, Muslim scholars have argued that people of fitra (natural innocence) with no knowledge of Islam will not be penalised for their lack of knowledge. They will be judged on works alone, each person to the extent of his or her ability and circumstances.

This argument has been extended to those who have only heard of Islam from garbled and distorted sources, or cast in a negative light, and therefore have inaccurate knowledge. Such people will also not be penalised. This is where mainstream (Sunni) opinion generally ends.

The furthest extent of this argument is the minority opinion. It says that only those who fully understand Islam, and despite grasping it, and even perhaps acknowledging its correctness, and then CONTINUING to reject it, will be sentenced to hell. This is probably the most lenient reading because it requires the person to acknowledge that Islam is the correct religion and then reject it anyway. In other words, it limits the punishment of hell not to non-believers, but to the munafiqun in particular.

The Isma'ili Shi'a position is similar to the last reading except that it places another burden on Muslims in particular. Those Muslims who realize the true Imam of the Time, understand the nature of his authority and his wilayah and Imamah, and then continue to reject him or fight against him, will suffer in hell. In the Ismaili view, this is the only true takfir - to accept the underlying Message of Islam, to understand that Ali was Muhammad's successor and heir to the authority of Imamah, to understand that Isma'il was Ja'far's rightful heir, to understand that Nizar was Mustansirbillah's heir, and to understand that the Nizari Imam is the true Imam of the Time, and then reject him anyway - that's the only thing that will land you in hell from a belief perspective.

Of course notwithstanding all the above, your belief is just one half of the equation. Having perfect belief and being a ****ty person will land you in hell.

As to where other Abrahamic religions fall into this, mainstream Sunni opinion is divided. On one hand the Qur'an makes provision that Jews and Christians who follow their own law will go to heaven. This is the Ismaili position as well. The other reading is that that provision only applied to Christians and Jews who were born before having a chance to hear the message of Islam, those today who still have not heard it, and those who hear of it in a garbled/misleading/polemicized way are also in the clear, but otherwise no.

Generally I tend to put stock in the hadith that he or she who acknowledges the creator and has even an atom's weight of good in his or her heart will taste paradise, but we Isma'ilis are hippies and love everyone. It also helps that heaven and hell are not physical places but rather states of being after death in Islam. Don't quote me on this but I also think Ismaili belief is that the state of hell is not permanent but rather a purgation of the worst souls until they too achieve gnosis

nvm weird repeat post

PabloSerna said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Pinochet said:

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The problem is that to accept something, it must be an action based on known facts. You can't accept something without knowing what you're accepting.

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I generally agree. This is exactly why I don't buy the argument that assumes that the Christian God is real and that the 2/3 of the planet that does not believe in the Christian God has rejected Him. The whole idea of being judged based on which religion or beliefs we were born into and decided to follow in life is horribly flawed.

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I don't think that is what the "Christian God" is all about.

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Assuming that you do believe in a God, what does God judge us based on then?