FAT SEXY said:
Does he go to heaven?
Yes. It is obvious that people in the OT didn't know Jesus and they had salvation. Naaman, etc. See Genesis 48 also.
A good man isolated within the Amazon dies without having ever heard of Jesus..
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Last: 2 yr ago by kurt vonnegut
Yes. It is obvious that people in the OT didn't know Jesus and they had salvation. Naaman, etc. See Genesis 48 also.
This question has only been asked a million times on this board and seems just as foolish everything.
The Christian doesn't go to heaven because he is good, but because Christ's death and resurrection. He died for us because we are not good.
What makes good the criteria for heaven? Psalmist tells us that no one is good, no not even one. Paul says that all have sinned and fallen short. The writer of Hebrews reminds us in the hall of faith that all the great heroes of our religion are righteous because of their faith. Even Jesus says no one is good except the Father.
Instead, Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." We come to God through faith and can only be called good because we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Paul writes "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
So it is foolish because it assumes a false premise for how we get to heaven, that it is by being good. Instead it is by the finished work of Christ, who dies for those of us who are not good. It also assumes the only thing benefit to salvation is heaven when we die. It also leads to the implication that we should not evangelise. Christ instead says "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."
So does he go to heaven? I don't know, that's up to God. But I do know that scripture is clear that the only way is through Jesus and I am to tell everyone about the great treasure I found in Him.
The Christian doesn't go to heaven because he is good, but because Christ's death and resurrection. He died for us because we are not good.
What makes good the criteria for heaven? Psalmist tells us that no one is good, no not even one. Paul says that all have sinned and fallen short. The writer of Hebrews reminds us in the hall of faith that all the great heroes of our religion are righteous because of their faith. Even Jesus says no one is good except the Father.
Instead, Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." We come to God through faith and can only be called good because we are being transformed into the image of Christ. Paul writes "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
So it is foolish because it assumes a false premise for how we get to heaven, that it is by being good. Instead it is by the finished work of Christ, who dies for those of us who are not good. It also assumes the only thing benefit to salvation is heaven when we die. It also leads to the implication that we should not evangelise. Christ instead says "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."
So does he go to heaven? I don't know, that's up to God. But I do know that scripture is clear that the only way is through Jesus and I am to tell everyone about the great treasure I found in Him.
Agree with what you said but I believe a lit depends on how you view the atonement.
If you believe, as I do, that the atonement was for every man and only humans limit it, then I could see how a man who did not know of Jesus could still benefit from God's Grace and be "good".
In Romans Paul writes that there is no excuse for any man as God is revealed through the beauty of His creation.
1 Timothy 2 3-4 states God desires all men to be saved.
I agree only God decides what happens with those who have not heard of Jesus.
But from the verses above, I think that every person either rejects or accepts God even if they have not heard of Jesus.
God desires all men to be saved, what can not God do?
That is why the Incarnation and the atonement are so awesome and universal. God's mercy is incredible.
If you believe, as I do, that the atonement was for every man and only humans limit it, then I could see how a man who did not know of Jesus could still benefit from God's Grace and be "good".
In Romans Paul writes that there is no excuse for any man as God is revealed through the beauty of His creation.
1 Timothy 2 3-4 states God desires all men to be saved.
I agree only God decides what happens with those who have not heard of Jesus.
But from the verses above, I think that every person either rejects or accepts God even if they have not heard of Jesus.
God desires all men to be saved, what can not God do?
That is why the Incarnation and the atonement are so awesome and universal. God's mercy is incredible.
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The usual answer is that most here don't know the specifics but they trust God to work it out.
I think a few before have said they don't think people are save unless they've been explicit about accepting the gospel.
I think a few before have said they don't think people are save unless they've been explicit about accepting the gospel.
No because heaven doesn't exist
Is it fair to say that every human, born after the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, has a deadline to accept Jesus as Lord and savior before dying or risk not going to heaven?
If it doesn't, then I am a fool. And wasting a lot of time and money. I am betting my life it does.schmendeler said:
No because heaven doesn't exist
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And back to the op, I think it is fascinating that Christ limited his ministry to the Jews. And did not yell"Turn or burn" or whatever. Nothing like what American evangelism has become.
Does anyone really believe that Christ did not preach to the Gentiles if He knew that were in danger of eternal Hell? Unless he preached the Gospel to them?
And why did Paul never mention Hell? Wouldn't you think he would be fervently preaching that doctrine as if it exists as a permanent torture chamber, is not the most important thing ever? In history?
Western evangelism looks nothing like Paul or our Lord's preachings and teachings imho.
Does anyone really believe that Christ did not preach to the Gentiles if He knew that were in danger of eternal Hell? Unless he preached the Gospel to them?
And why did Paul never mention Hell? Wouldn't you think he would be fervently preaching that doctrine as if it exists as a permanent torture chamber, is not the most important thing ever? In history?
Western evangelism looks nothing like Paul or our Lord's preachings and teachings imho.
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Being wrong doesn't make one a fool. Failing to acknowledge the possibility that one is wrong makes someone a fool.
Disagree. The stakes of this are the highest of anything we will confront in our lives. I would call someone a fool who devoted their life to a myth.Dilettante said:
Being wrong doesn't make one a fool. Failing to acknowledge the possibility that one is wrong makes someone a fool.
As I said, I am staking my life on Jesus. And heaven.
You are free to stake your life on whatever you want. But make no mistake, this is the biggest decision in your life and basically defines who you are and how you live. Goes way beyond the eternal aspects.
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Only if what you believe is actually true, otherwise it seems relatively inconsequential.
Dilettante said:
Being wrong doesn't make one a fool. Failing to acknowledge the possibility that one is wrong makes someone a fool.
Okay.
Does it go both ways?
When this question is posed, a "good man" is always presented through the eyes if a fallen world.
What we call a good man and what God calls a good man are worlds apart.
Holiness means no sin at all.
Even Jesus said don't call me good, only the Father which is in heaven is good (paraphrased).
People promoting such questions like to think that if a guy is 51% good, then God must be a real monster for not rewarding a scale slanted in good's favor.
God needs the scale to read 100% good.
None of us could do that. None of us can.
Thus, the only one that could, did, and here we are.
Now where are you?
What we call a good man and what God calls a good man are worlds apart.
Holiness means no sin at all.
Even Jesus said don't call me good, only the Father which is in heaven is good (paraphrased).
People promoting such questions like to think that if a guy is 51% good, then God must be a real monster for not rewarding a scale slanted in good's favor.
God needs the scale to read 100% good.
None of us could do that. None of us can.
Thus, the only one that could, did, and here we are.
Now where are you?
FAT SEXY said:
Does he go to heaven?
He goes straight to Hell and takes you with him!
Just kidding.
He is judged and, I believe, permitted to enter Heaven if righteous.
I don't understand the question. What are the two ways it could go?Dr. Mephisto said:Dilettante said:
Being wrong doesn't make one a fool. Failing to acknowledge the possibility that one is wrong makes someone a fool.
Okay.
Does it go both ways?
If you believe the isolated man goes to heaven without knowing Christ, then the interesting follow on question is always: is it better to not tell him?
Option 1: He hears about Christ, rejects him, and then is damned. This is the most likely option if told.
Option 2: He never heard of Christ, and therefore never rejected him, lives a good life and is saved.
Option 3: He hears about Christ, accepts him, but goes against his entire life and everyone he knows to do so. Not a likely outcome if told.
Option 1: He hears about Christ, rejects him, and then is damned. This is the most likely option if told.
Option 2: He never heard of Christ, and therefore never rejected him, lives a good life and is saved.
Option 3: He hears about Christ, accepts him, but goes against his entire life and everyone he knows to do so. Not a likely outcome if told.
schmendeler said:
No because heaven doesn't exist
You are definitely in the right forum, sir.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
This is an over simplified and makes it like a game. The scriptures say that people who don't know God but do good are following the Law anyway. The perfect judge isn't going to play gotcha games with people, especially when He loves them, and did everything possible to save them and unite them to Himself.
First, the whole "go to heaven" thing is a misunderstanding. God is going to bring Heaven down to Earth and dwell with His people. We will still be living on Earth, but it will be a perfect Earth.
So as to whether the person in question will gain eternal life, that's entirely up to God. According to the Bible, every man knows God, and people "follow the Law" without knowing they are doing it. That phrase "follow the Law" is equivalent to saying that these people worship God, and God takes care of the people who worship Him. The same is said by Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus are those that do his Father's Will. So what is God's will? That we love each other, treat each other with fairness and mercy, give generously, and value concepts like truth, justice, and duty.
Lastly, it's not like God is sitting back and waiting for people to die to pass judgement. For all that it is subtle, He is constantly interacting with us. No matter how badly people are living, there is a constant opportunity to do and be good. For those that are good, there are constant temptations to do and be bad. Every minute we get do decide who we are and want to be, good or evil, Godly or sinful, kind or cruel, generous or jealous, just or unjust.
So as to whether the person in question will gain eternal life, that's entirely up to God. According to the Bible, every man knows God, and people "follow the Law" without knowing they are doing it. That phrase "follow the Law" is equivalent to saying that these people worship God, and God takes care of the people who worship Him. The same is said by Jesus. Those who believe in Jesus are those that do his Father's Will. So what is God's will? That we love each other, treat each other with fairness and mercy, give generously, and value concepts like truth, justice, and duty.
Lastly, it's not like God is sitting back and waiting for people to die to pass judgement. For all that it is subtle, He is constantly interacting with us. No matter how badly people are living, there is a constant opportunity to do and be good. For those that are good, there are constant temptations to do and be bad. Every minute we get do decide who we are and want to be, good or evil, Godly or sinful, kind or cruel, generous or jealous, just or unjust.
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No savior ever born was named Jesus. The patriarchs of the Torah put there faith in the Yeshua(h) of YHWH, which is exactly the name of our savior.
But to answer the OP, I think a man who never knew the name of Yeshua can get to heaven similar to the way a man who never knew the name of Joseph Stauss can get to San Fransisco.
But to answer the OP, I think a man who never knew the name of Yeshua can get to heaven similar to the way a man who never knew the name of Joseph Stauss can get to San Fransisco.
dermdoc said:Disagree. The stakes of this are the highest of anything we will confront in our lives. I would call someone a fool who devoted their life to a myth.Dilettante said:
Being wrong doesn't make one a fool. Failing to acknowledge the possibility that one is wrong makes someone a fool.
As I said, I am staking my life on Jesus. And heaven.
You are free to stake your life on whatever you want. But make no mistake, this is the biggest decision in your life and basically defines who you are and how you live. Goes way beyond the eternal aspects.
The majority of the people on the planet or who have ever lived have devoted themselves to the 'myth' closest at hand, that their family raised them on, and that their culture celebrated. I don't think that those people were foolish and I don't think they made the 'wrong' decisions. In most cases, related to religion, people make the only decision that is a realistic option to them.
In a way, I suppose I am staking my eternal life on the idea that, if God exists, God probably isn't likely to punish people for the accident of when, where, and to whom they are born.
How people treat the idea of Heaven (or Hell) is so strange to me. I agree with you that Christianity sets the stakes incredibly high on this goal. But we don't really know what Heaven is supposed to be like. Christians have different ideas on how to get to Heaven, who gets to Heaven, what happens to children and people of other faiths, is there a purgatory, what is that like, what is Hell, who goes to Hell, will we get bored in Heaven, do we really live for eternity, what does that even mean, and on and on. Every time I hear or read a Christian description of Heaven, it just sounds like flowery theological word salad. I don't know what stuff like "living for eternity in harmony with God's love" means in any practical sense. I can conclude that Christians see Heaven as 'good'. . . . but beyond that, I don't think you all have a clue what you are talking about. We simply lack the data.
Anyway, I'm probably wrong about most of what I just typed. I acknowledge that possibility and I don't fear looking foolish.
You do not appear foolish.
I really like Randy Alcorn's book called Heaven. You might enjoy it.
I really like Randy Alcorn's book called Heaven. You might enjoy it.
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It's blasphemous, but I like "The 5 People You Meet in Heaven" by Mitch Albom.
Dilettante said:
It's blasphemous, but I like "The 5 People You Meet in Heaven" by Mitch Albom.
I personally do not think it is blasphemous but it does put an emphasis on people rather than God.
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I don't know if you'll find all the answers you're searching for, but the Bible's contextual version of heaven is very different than what is portrayed in the media, culture, and country songs.
A couple big things about what we were told heaven isn't.
-Its not a far flung place out in the galaxy. It is washed sinless version of earth.
-It is not a 'indulge in every vice you didn't get on earth' (But it will be blissfully joyful, but not in a cocaine+strippers+fast cars+mansions way.
-It is not a place where disembodied spirit versions of our selves float around on wings. Yes, before final judgement, followers of Christ are 'kept in the presence of God.' But the final version of ourselves is ourselves. When earth is made anew we are given regenerated bodies. Your body and mind are intended to be kept as one.
A couple things we know about heaven.
-It is the healing of what happened in the beginning of Genesis. Sin brought about by our humanities own choices led to separation between us and God. We are reunited with God, in his presence, with hearts that only yearn for goodness. The tree of knowledge of good and evil does not exist. Those decisions and redemptions have already been made.
-Jesus talks about that the answer for humanity isn't a better teacher with wiser words than what has been shared before, but a new heart. And thats exactly what he gives us.
-God desires us to make earth as heaven like here for us now. Death has been defeated, we have the ability through Christ to break free from our bonds of sin. God wants us to live in peace with one another, show love, forgiveness, kindness, take care of the widows, orphans, and the poor.
A couple big things about what we were told heaven isn't.
-Its not a far flung place out in the galaxy. It is washed sinless version of earth.
-It is not a 'indulge in every vice you didn't get on earth' (But it will be blissfully joyful, but not in a cocaine+strippers+fast cars+mansions way.
-It is not a place where disembodied spirit versions of our selves float around on wings. Yes, before final judgement, followers of Christ are 'kept in the presence of God.' But the final version of ourselves is ourselves. When earth is made anew we are given regenerated bodies. Your body and mind are intended to be kept as one.
A couple things we know about heaven.
-It is the healing of what happened in the beginning of Genesis. Sin brought about by our humanities own choices led to separation between us and God. We are reunited with God, in his presence, with hearts that only yearn for goodness. The tree of knowledge of good and evil does not exist. Those decisions and redemptions have already been made.
-Jesus talks about that the answer for humanity isn't a better teacher with wiser words than what has been shared before, but a new heart. And thats exactly what he gives us.
-God desires us to make earth as heaven like here for us now. Death has been defeated, we have the ability through Christ to break free from our bonds of sin. God wants us to live in peace with one another, show love, forgiveness, kindness, take care of the widows, orphans, and the poor.
one MEEN Ag said:
blissfully joyful, but not in a cocaine+strippers+fast cars+mansions way.
Does not compute...
10 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world."
5 For Moses writes of the righteousness that is based on the Law, that the person who performs them will live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How then are they to call on Him in whom they have not believed? How are they to believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 But how are they to preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world."
Isn't this basically the same as the age old question of whether babies who die before or during birth go to heaven? I have trouble drawing a distinction between that and OP's hypothetical, as well as between those and a child who dies young and never had anyone tell him the good news of the Gospel.
Presumably it would be different in that a baby or young child would not have any criteria by which to be judged. The man in the Amazon has made choices by which he could be judged.Pinochet said:
Isn't this basically the same as the age old question of whether babies who die before or during birth go to heaven? I have trouble drawing a distinction between that and OP's hypothetical, as well as between those and a child who dies young and never had anyone tell him the good news of the Gospel.
Also. . . . I have an objection to the idea that babies or children get a free pass to Heaven.
Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.
Anyway, it just seems too simple to say that children go to Heaven. That child is a human being, who should they be spared from the car accident, could grow up to be a truly terrible human being. Yet they will be rewarded with an infinity in Heaven.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. . . .I suppose it can just be counted as another reason why I object to anyone answering any of these questions with anything other than 'I don't know'.
Lets say a child dies in a car accident. What if this child was born with a severe sociopathy that had not yet manifested, but would some day yield the next Jeffrey Dahmer? The child is given a pass to Heaven on account of its age and lack of criteria on which it could be judged. In one hand, this seems fair; to not judge someone based on something they have not yet done in the future. On the other hand, it seems incredibly unfair and random that some people get a free pass based on random accidents or a poor decision by the driver that caused the accident.
Anyway, it just seems too simple to say that children go to Heaven. That child is a human being, who should they be spared from the car accident, could grow up to be a truly terrible human being. Yet they will be rewarded with an infinity in Heaven.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this. . . .I suppose it can just be counted as another reason why I object to anyone answering any of these questions with anything other than 'I don't know'.
Jesus said:
Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I am in no position to determine or dictate how that "except through me" happens.
I trust in the Mercy of God who knows the heart of every man.
The fairness issue extends way beyond that.
It's hopeless for something to be fair when it is a binary choice between some pretty sophomoric ideas about a place that's the Goodest good and another that's the baddest bad.
People don't divide into those categories when judged on behavior-which we are inclined to do. I'd even argue people don't divide into those categories based on belief.
Even ignoring the complexities of environments and circumstances a "fair" solution is basically out of the question. And this would seem more ok if everyone gets to heaven in the end. Far less so if the road is narrow and few will find it.
It's hopeless for something to be fair when it is a binary choice between some pretty sophomoric ideas about a place that's the Goodest good and another that's the baddest bad.
People don't divide into those categories when judged on behavior-which we are inclined to do. I'd even argue people don't divide into those categories based on belief.
Even ignoring the complexities of environments and circumstances a "fair" solution is basically out of the question. And this would seem more ok if everyone gets to heaven in the end. Far less so if the road is narrow and few will find it.
There is a major problem with the idea of everyone getting into heaven, and that's the problem of suffering. If the ultimate outcome of every existence is eternal bliss, then what's the point of an earthly lifetime peppered with misery and suffering? Why not just skip to the end of the story and bypass all that badness? It's hard to square unless you consider that suffering has a purpose, and that purpose must be ridiculously important to justify the amount of suffering that people undergo in their lives. As important as the eternal fate of the person involved, perhaps.Quote:
Even ignoring the complexities of environments and circumstances a "fair" solution is basically out of the question. And this would seem more ok if everyone gets to heaven in the end. Far less so if the road is narrow and few will find it.
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