Does mind exist?

1,451 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by ramblin_ag02
americathegreat1492
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I was thinking about this the other day. If you ask people "what is the mind?" some of them will answer something like "You mean the brain?" But does brain equal mind or is mind an emergent phenomena from neural processes?

Part of the reason I was thinking about this is that, let's say you think "a mind" exists. When people interact, minds are interfacing with each other. How far does this stack up?
PascalsWager
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AG
The implications of one's answer to this question is astounding. It is going to inform every other metaphysical and arguable theological claim one makes.

You don't mess around with the small questions do you?
DirtDiver
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Jesus would say yes.

And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
schmendeler
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AG
I think the "mind" is probably an emergent property. It's pretty clear to me that you cannot have the mind without the brain.
Dilettante
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Brain equals mind and the mind is an emergent phenomenon. Both are true.
NotAGiantBagOfWater
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Dilettante said:

Brain equals mind and the mind is an emergent phenomenon. Both are true.

The mind is an emergent phenomenon of itself?
Quad Dog
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AG
In my experience it depends on the person
Dilettante
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It's a tautology, but yes, things do have the properties of themselves. A subset of brains have the properties of minds.
NotAGiantBagOfWater
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Dilettante said:

It's a tautology, but yes, things do have the properties of themselves. A subset of brains have the properties of minds.

I'm trying to understand your point of view here, so bare with me.

Are minds equivalent to brains as you stated earlier, or are minds a particular subset of brains, or are minds a phenomenon emerging from a certain subset of brains?

In your view does the word mind describe a physical or abstract concept?
Dilettante
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NotAGiantBagOfWater said:

Dilettante said:

It's a tautology, but yes, things do have the properties of themselves. A subset of brains have the properties of minds.

I'm trying to understand your point of view here, so bare with me.

Are minds equivalent to brains as you stated earlier, or are minds a particular subset of brains, or are minds a phenomenon emerging from a certain subset of brains?

In your view does the word mind describe a physical or abstract concept?
It seems like what we call a mind is something some brains do. Psychology isn't something I think about a lot, so I'm not even really clear on what the term "mind" encompasses, specifically. It might be a useful way of thinking but I don't see any reason to believe a mind exists as distinct from the brain.

Mind equals brain isn't really accurate, but the opposite is less accurate. I was trying to answer a simple question with a yes/no type of answer, and that obviously doesn't capture the nuance.

americathegreat1492
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The question is ultimately about reducibility and the real. I dont think that people generally believe emergent things to be subject to complete reducibility. Equivalence implies total reducibility to me, I could be mistaken.
americathegreat1492
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Physical reductionists have a real moral problem, and non-reductionists have a real theological problem.
NotAGiantBagOfWater
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It's an interesting question to think about.

Could a human mind be transferred to a different medium? Could it be reimplemented on a silicone instead of carbon architecture? Could it be essentially reconstructed using digital logic? I don't know what the true answer to those questions is, but I could at least conceive of the answer being yes. For that reason I think of the concept of a mind as something distinct from the brain, even though currently all minds that we know of require a brain for implementation.
Dilettante
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How are you using reducibility there?
americathegreat1492
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Fully explainable (in both structure and function) in terms of the lower order object, and with no need to ever invoke or refer to the higher order. In such circumstances, it seems pointless to think the higher object even exists.
An L of an Ag
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AG
Kurt Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and the proof thereof capture the essence of this seeming paradox. But a very thorough treatment of the whole "Strange Loop" phenomenon is Hofstadter's "Godel, Escher, Bach".
bmks270
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AG
The brains neural pathways change over time depending on the persons actions and also imagination.

Does the brain direct itself?

I think this eventually just becomes a question of free will.

Brain damage can drastically alter a persons personality. But if the brain is the free wills command and control center, I think it leaves room for a "mind," that directs the body.

Imagining an experience causes physiological changes in the brain and body. What is directing those images?
bmks270
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AG
NotAGiantBagOfWater said:

It's an interesting question to think about.

Could a human mind be transferred to a different medium? Could it be reimplemented on a silicone instead of carbon architecture? Could it be essentially reconstructed using digital logic? I don't know what the true answer to those questions is, but I could at least conceive of the answer being yes. For that reason I think of the concept of a mind as something distinct from the brain, even though currently all minds that we know of require a brain for implementation.


When you say mind do you just mean consciousness?
bmks270
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AG
At what degree of complexity do we assign a mind to a lifeform? Do plants have minds? Do single cell organisms? Worms? A fish? A dog? Do these organisms have intention? Their motions appear purposeful, order from chaos.
DirtDiver
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If the Bible is true <I believe it is> then consider the following?

33 Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him, that it would be paid back to him?

God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Puzzle:
Jesus died and rose again. His resurrected body was something we have never experienced or seen. It's obvious that He still had what we would consider a 'mind' however was there still a need or purpose of the physical brain?

I would conclude that the mind is an immaterial part of our spiritual self that exists while in the body but also exists once the body is dead.
Jabin
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Here is one guy that believes that the mind and brain are two separate things, and that the brain is simply a transducer:

Your Brain Is Not a Computer. It Is a Transducer | Discover Magazine
Rongagin71
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AG
My introduction to the concept was when Nano said "You better start minding me, boy!"

In grade school it was popular for people to say that we humans are only using 10% of our brains, so a great potential for improvement of mankind was there...then it came out that most of the brain is involved in controlling body functions (example: endocrine system) and only a small part makes up/causes what could be called the mind.
fat girlfriend
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The idea that the mind is reducible the brain is fraught with difficulties. For one, there is nothing about matter or any combination of particles that can in any way explain the emergence of consciousness. For another, the idea that the brain is identical to the mind entails that mental states are logically supervenient on brain states, but they clearly are not.
Star Wars Memes Only
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I could believe that the brain and mind are the same up to essentially an isomorphism.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
I might just be tired, but I need someone to explain half this thread to me like I'm 5. At least I recognize the Bible parts
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