I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Orthodox. My point is that they are not some large bastion of unity and cooperation. There is only one of those in Christendom, and that's the Catholic Church. However, that unity and cooperation comes at a high cost that neither Orthodox nor Protestants are willing to pay

Administrative unity? Maybe not. We are humans after all.

Theological and spiritual unity? Absolutely.

Theological unity perhaps. I find the spiritual unity claim hard to believe when half of the largest branch based adherents, wealth and influence has broken communion with almost everyone else

AGC said:

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Orthodox Texan said:

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BQ2017 said:

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I've been wanting to go speak to an Orthodox priest and ask him everything about that denomination because I literally have no idea what it's about.

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Nice! Definitely check it out. More than likely it will look very odd and you will have no idea what's going on in the liturgy but definitely have a chat with the priest. The majority of my parish in Austin are converts from various Protestant churches. Honestly if you listen to podcasts check out Lord of Spirits. Two awesome orthodox priests that talk about a lot of interesting topics. Read or listen to "The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First Century. Incredible book. I think Amazon is sold out of the physical version but they have audible. Ancient faith might have the physical book in stock. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B097FBNQHV/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=

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The podcast will be painful to listen to if you can't handle excessive giggling or extensive nerd references. If you're good with both and constantly referencing a 1970s philosophy paper about being a bat then by all means take this advice.

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Haha ya they are nerds but it's great. I love how he brought up Nagel. I had so many philosophy books before converting and Nagel was one that always peaked my interest, especially when his community turned on him. It's actually where postmodernists in general get one thing right. Everyone is influenced by their surroundings and have biases but then they make a wrong turn saying Truth can't be accessed. Orthodox and Christians in general believe that God has access to the essence of all things. So while we can't know what's it's like to be a bat or even what it's like to be someone close to us, God does and we should follow what He commands us to.

This is also why Orthodoxy doesn't condemn people to hell like many Protestant leaders do. Some of the ridiculous Baptist or evangelical stuff I grew up with would indicate that if you never heard of Christ then you won't be saved or whatever. Missing the point that God will fairly judge everyone with what they've been given.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Orthodox. My point is that they are not some large bastion of unity and cooperation. There is only one of those in Christendom, and that's the Catholic Church. However, that unity and cooperation comes at a high cost that neither Orthodox nor Protestants are willing to pay

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Most of the Orthodox Church is currently in communion. There are issues but they take a long time to play out. Unity for the Catholic Church is just power and the abuse of papal supremacy. Just because they are unified doesn't mean they are connected to the Church. That decision was made a long time ago. Catholics will disagree with that division but they are the ones with a Pope. Protestants wanted to leave behind that authority but realistically just made a bunch of Popes that decided to do and interpret whatever they deemed true to the Bible through their worldview.

Everyone should read about the divisions between the early reformers and some of the eye witness accounts during debates between Luther and Zwingli.

Well, since you asked.

I think this clearly evidences the failure of Protestantism. There are literally tens of thiusands different Protestant "faiths" all professing their own truth.

And these new branches of Methodism? There is only one certainty: They will die or they will further split, like every single Protestant faith before it..

Protestantism is clearly a hydra

but as a protestant myself...

Bilbe didnt split

BQ2017 said:

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I'll tell you what, I think A&M UMC will go GMC because the most political I've EVER seen Preston (the Pastor) been is "oh yeah uh I think voting is today go vote if you want"

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UMC pastors rotate on a regular basis. It's not going to be up to the local pastors, but rather the members themselves. At some point each church is going to gather their members and have a big vote.

Could this be because the New Testament model is based on local churches who choose to work together instead of denominational bureaucracy?

anaag75 said:

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Could this be because the New Testament model is based on local churches who choose to work together instead of denominational bureaucracy?

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They came together in ecumenical councils. Luther and other reformers said no thanks and dismissed councils all together. Foolish move but then again they are all little popes so it makes sense. They had no solution to the very thing they protested. The reformation molded the modern individual and gave way to everything you see today in the west.

Orthodox Texan said:

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anaag75 said:

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Could this be because the New Testament model is based on local churches who choose to work together instead of denominational bureaucracy?

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They came together in ecumenical councils. Luther and other reformers said no thanks and dismissed councils all together. Foolish move but then again they are all little popes so it makes sense. They had no solution to the very thing they protested. The reformation molded the modern individual and gave way to everything you see today in the west.

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Yep. As I said, they chose to come together in common agreement, for a specific, common good. I'm not a Lutheran but I think part of Luther's frustration was the bureaucracy. He saw things that he believed were against the word of God in the function and manifestation of bureaucracy in the Church. But there's no way to meaningfully disagree and see change with something as big as the Catholic Church (or the Methodist or Baptist or whatever) about things that are manifestly ingrained into the culture and hierarchy without overturning the apple cart.

And trust me, that's not a shot at anyone in particular. My own organization has some of the worst bureaucracy.

Everything woke turns to ____.

The sum of this thread is that Methodism, like most mainstream Protestantism is screwed: it simply doesn't stand for anything except for an amorphous "do good social things" theology. Catholicism and Orthodoxy retain some appeal because despite papal missteps and blessing of pogroms (Russia, Serbia) by priests, both retain some elements of mysticism.

It wasn't always that way. Methodism during the 2nd Great Awakening was described as boiling hot religion where penitents would flood brush arbor altars during revivals and camp meetings under the unction of the Holy Spirit. That loss of spiritual urgency led to Methodism's descendant: Pentecostalism which has the highest growth rate in Christianity. If their theology is imprecise ( and in the main Pentecostal denominations it is not) the genuineness of seeking God is certainly clear. Methodism has only its clerical leaders to blame for its rapid decline.

UTExan said:

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The sum of this thread is that Methodism, like most mainstream Protestantism is screwed: it simply doesn't stand for anything except for an amorphous "do good social things" theology. Catholicism and Orthodoxy retain some appeal because despite papal missteps and blessing of pogroms (Russia, Serbia) by priests, both retain some elements of mysticism.

It wasn't always that way. Methodism during the 2nd Great Awakening was described as boiling hot religion where penitents would flood brush arbor altars during revivals and camp meetings under the unction of the Holy Spirit. That loss of spiritual urgency led to Methodism's descendant: Pentecostalism which has the highest growth rate in Christianity. If their theology is imprecise ( and in the main Pentecostal denominations it is not) the genuineness of seeking God is certainly clear. Methodism has only its clerical leaders to blame for its rapid decline.

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I agree with this. My hope is that when we eventually have the "split" is that the "conservative" faction will see a big growth from those that left because of the progressive policies. We need to hold our clergy and lay leaders accountable going forward to prevent another "coup". We all got complacent and thought it would never come to this. We were wrong.