Christianity Today: The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll)

24,640 Views | 229 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by diehard03
Marvin_Zindler
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AG
For anyone interested, Christianity Today is producing a podcast that is taking an in-depth look at the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church in Seattle and, by extension, Mark Driscoll. So far, 4 episodes have been released and they are very well done.

If you know the story of Mars Hill or follow any of the young restless reformed crowd, it will be well worth your time.
Martin Q. Blank
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What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.
AGC
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Martin Q. Blank said:

What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.


Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.

Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.
PacifistAg
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Kevin DeYoung, a father of NINE children, is still struggling to learn how to do laundry. Poor wife.

Marvin_Zindler
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PacifistAg said:

Kevin DeYoung, a father of NINE children, is still struggling to learn how to do laundry. Poor wife.


I'll admit I don't the difference either.......but who doesn't just use Tide Pods these days?
AGC
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PacifistAg said:

Kevin DeYoung, a father of NINE children, is still struggling to learn how to do laundry. Poor wife.




I'm perplexed by this response. The tweet is from March. Did you search his Twitter feed until you found something to criticize? Or do you have that 'liked' for some reason?
PacifistAg
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AGC said:

PacifistAg said:

Kevin DeYoung, a father of NINE children, is still struggling to learn how to do laundry. Poor wife.




I'm perplexed by this response. The tweet is from March. Did you search his Twitter feed until you found something to criticize? Or do you have that 'liked' for some reason?

Not sure what's so perplexing. I'm very active on twitter and remember when he tweeted that admission that he has long left his wife to do all the laundry for their very large family. I saw his name above, and it made me think of it so I just searched "kevin deyoung laundry detergent".

It was just meant to be for a good laugh. Relax.
10andBOUNCE
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Piper continues to stand the test of time
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Piper continues to stand the test of time


I do not believe in predetermined limited atonement so I do not read Piper much.

He also wrote a book on retirement where he stated that if you retired and did nothing except relax you could lose your salvation which seemed very odd for a "7 point"Calvinist.
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Frok
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I've listened to the first couple episodes of this podcast, it is fascinating. I used to listen to Mark Driscoll sermons when I first discovered podcasts back in the late 2000s. He was definitely arrogant but it was amazing the type of people he had coming to church in the Seattle area.

PacifistAg
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Yeah, I have quite a few issues with Piper. When you blame LGBTQIA people for tornados, or tell women to endure "perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church." then I'll just pass on by and not put much stock in what you say.
UTExan
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PacifistAg said:

Yeah, I have quite a few issues with Piper. When you blame LGBTQIA people for tornados, or tell women to endure "perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church." then I'll just pass on by and not put much stock in what you say.


This. Being smacked by a spouse means that spouse has violated the marriage vows as much as if the spouse had committed adultery. Time to involve the police and courts for civil protection while calling out church leadership for their unfaithfulness as well. That is about as dumb a take as I have heard from any clergy of any persuasion.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
c-jags
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AGC said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.


Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.

Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.


while i disagree on Chandler's political views when it comes to race a 0 sum game, i feel like he's still pretty darn biblical in his teachings from what i still read or listen to.

i can see how some people arrive at some different sjw issues from the Bible than i arrive at my personal opinion, but i haven't heard him go off the deep end.

i'm pretty critical of Russell Moore from a political perspective and that i think his comments outside of the Bible are pretty short-sided, but he's still a Bible believing Christian.
Not a Bot
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Driscoll has started a new church in Arizona. Having similar issues there. Also apparently he has amassed a $10 million legal fund to bury anyone who goes after him.

https://julieroys.com/podcast/inside-the-driscoll-cult/
AGC
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c-jags said:

AGC said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

What ever happened to him? In fact, I haven't heard much from that whole crowd - John Piper, Matt Chandler, Francis Chan, Kevin DeYoung.


Spectacular fall. The podcast is a great listen. It's part of what spurred my posts in the other thread.

Chan is catholic now of course. DeYoung is being accused of white supremacy despite not trying to be a white supremacist by Duke Kwon. Chandler is full SJW and ironically tied in to SBC sermongate because several years ago he endorsed Docent Research Group which hires non pastors without theology degrees to do exegetical analysis to create sermons for mega church pastors like Keller, Greear, Litton, etc.


while i disagree on Chandler's political views when it comes to race a 0 sum game, i feel like he's still pretty darn biblical in his teachings from what i still read or listen to.

i can see how some people arrive at some different sjw issues from the Bible than i arrive at my personal opinion, but i haven't heard him go off the deep end.

i'm pretty critical of Russell Moore from a political perspective and that i think his comments outside of the Bible are pretty short-sided, but he's still a Bible believing Christian.


Well that's the thing though: are they even his teachings? That's what the Docent controversy is about. That's what's engulfing the SBC right now. It was plagiarism that has kind of morphed into another facet of sermon prep: should it be done by committee or outsourced? When you endorse groups that do the exegesis for you one has to wonder.

Is there a connection between belief and practice? Forget presidential politics, look at how Moore handled the last SBC presidential vote by leaking letters and recordings. Are these examples of a Bible believing Christian? Or a man who should be called to repentance?
Frok
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Quote:

Well that's the thing though: are they even his teaching?


Do you have any evidence his sermons are not his teaching other than the endorsement of the Docent Group?
AGC
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Frok said:

Quote:

Well that's the thing though: are they even his teaching?


Do you have any evidence his sermons are not his teaching other than the endorsement of the Docent Group?


No. As the internet began looking into the plagiarists in the SBC his endorsement popped up. Hence I said he's tied into it, not that he's paying for it. But again I think the question is worth asking for anyone in his congregation or that listens to him regularly. Or that references him. It's certainly not unfair.
swimmerbabe11
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Marvin_Zindler said:

PacifistAg said:

Kevin DeYoung, a father of NINE children, is still struggling to learn how to do laundry. Poor wife.


I'll admit I don't the difference either.......but who doesn't just use Tide Pods these days?


I don't know of a nice way to explain this.. but the difference is spelled out pretty clearly in the names.....

I don't use tide pods.


But also, he made a joke, people make jokes, Pacifist then made a joke.. jokes all around
Dilettante
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dermdoc
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Seems to me like horrible theology. And who sets the standards for "perseverance"?

And how does a "seven point Calvinist" believe anyone can "lose" their salvation?

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Frok
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Well that's not his theology, there are plenty of other sources of him preaching the perseverance of the saints and that anyone who is born of the Spirit will not perish.

I'd be curious on the context of the passage. It sounds like he is teaching to not live like those who are perishing but it certainly does read like he is saying you can lose your salvation.

But I know Piper doesn't believe that so I doubt that is the point he was trying to make.
dermdoc
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Frok said:

Well that's not his theology, there are plenty of other sources of him preaching the perseverance of the saints and that anyone who is born of the Spirit will not perish.

I'd be curious on the context of the passage. It sounds like he is teaching to not live like those who are perishing but it certainly does read like he is saying you can lose your salvation.

But I know Piper doesn't believe that so I doubt that is the point he was trying to make.


Maybe so. But why word it like that? Just seems very odd.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Piper continues to stand the test of time


I do not believe in predetermined limited atonement so I do not read Piper much.

He also wrote a book on retirement where he stated that if you retired and did nothing except relax you could lose your salvation which seemed very odd for a "7 point"Calvinist.

I know what book you're talking about and I read it a ways back, but I don't remember that specific message about losing your salvation if you're lazy in retirement. I thought maybe it was more so if you do nothing but lay on the beach and play golf in your later years that isn't exactly a fruit bearing faith.
Martin Q. Blank
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Piper continues to stand the test of time


I do not believe in predetermined limited atonement so I do not read Piper much.

He also wrote a book on retirement where he stated that if you retired and did nothing except relax you could lose your salvation which seemed very odd for a "7 point"Calvinist.
He's not wrong. A friend of mine retired and wouldn't do anything but lay around and drink. One day he got so drunk he forgot where he put his salvation.
dermdoc
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Did you read the screen shot of his book I posted above?
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Not a Bot
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It was in "Don't Waste Your Life." He used an example of a couple spending retirement walking around on the beach collecting shells as a wasted opportunity to do something meaningful. He imagines them in heaven and Jesus saying something like "What have you done for me?" and all they can say is "Look Lord, here are some shells." I don't recall it being linked to losing salvation but I haven't had a copy of that book in years.
Martin Q. Blank
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Don't ever tell an evangelical they could lose their salvation. It's anathema.
dermdoc
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You are on point today sir.
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Marvin_Zindler
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Captain Positivity said:

It was in "Don't Waste Your Life." He used an example of a couple spending retirement walking around on the beach collecting shells as a wasted opportunity to do something meaningful. He imagines them in heaven and Jesus saying something like "What have you done for me?" and all they can say is "Look Lord, here are some shells." I don't recall it being linked to losing salvation but I haven't had a copy of that book in years.
This is correct. And that book was somewhat of an outgrowth of this very famous sermon from Passion OneDay in 2000. The famous shells illustration starts at 6:50

dermdoc
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With all due respect, can any Piper supporters address the actual words from his book above?

Thanks.
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UTExan
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Don't ever tell an evangelical they could lose their salvation. It's anathema.


There's a difference between losing salvation and losing reward.

Romans 14:4:

"Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."

Our lives are witnesses and it is hardest in our own family and friendship circles to live out that witness. Oftentimes words fail us but our actions can speak.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
10andBOUNCE
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I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I'm no theologian by any means, but it's one of those instances that if you're just coasting through life without any regard to the call and purpose Christ has for you, then you may not have really been regenerated like you think. You're not saved by saying a prayer in church one day. I believe Piper's argument is that if your life has boiled down to lounging on the beach without any regard to the cross of Christ and dying to self, then you may not really be saved. It may be uncomfortable to hear but there's a pretty good chance it's true.

I think the seashell example is a bit sensationalized however his point is valid as we Americans make these grand retirement plans that revolve around leisure, comfort and an attitude of ourselves being god.
Fair enough. But he is a proclaimed "seven point Calvinist" so nothing we do has any bearing on whether we are saved or not, correct?

God chooses who He will save and who he will not in Piper's theology. So how could one "lose" their salvation if they have no control over it at all? And how can what we do or not do have any effect on our salvation?

And please understand I am just throwing the question out and not trying to criticize or question you.

It just makes no sense.
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dermdoc
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It sounds like Piper is following "Lordship Salvation" theology similar to MacArthur.

In other words, he is setting up HIS standards of what he believes you must do to demonstrate you are "really" saved.

Of course, MacArthur's standards may be different.

And other LS pastors may be different also. Just seems like a theology fraught with personal interpretation by different powerful pastors.

And what is considered not "persevering"? Is it a waste of time to play golf? Fish? Hunt? How is collecting seashells less worthwhile than those activities?

Does Piper have a list of activities that are signs of regeneration and no loss of salvation?

And another list of activities that are not?

Seems like this is a way of giving pastors more power as they can determine what you need to do. And threaten you with loss of salvation if you do not do as they say.

Balderdash.
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Sb1540
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As modernity progresses many Protestant churches will fail or change so much that they really aren't Christian. This is inevitable to due to numerous reasons stemming from the reformation and 19th century German philosophy. Your church more than likely won't stand the storm of secular life that is advancing rapidly because most of you flow with it.
 
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