Does God Exist? Why? Why not?

2,611 Views | 41 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Aggrad08
Star Wars Memes Only
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I've been on this board for eightish years, and have never actually seen this discussed. Also, I'm rather bored at the moment.

Most of us are polite, and we try to work off the premises of the person we're having a discussion with. I rarely see the other person's fundamental beliefs themselves challenged. So here is a thread to do that.

Does God exist? Why or why not?
Rocag
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AG
Which god are we talking about? Is this a debate about theism in general or for a specific deity? Because I think those are two very different discussions.

Most debates on the existence of god that happen on this forum are actually about arguments for theism, not specifically for Christianity despite most of those arguing in favor of theism being Christians.
Star Wars Memes Only
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Let's say the Christian God.
Rocag
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AG
In the end, most arguments for Christianity (and every other religion for that matter) tend to end up being based on some personal experience instead of a more easily debatable piece of evidence. How do you respond to someone claiming they know their religion is true because they had an experience that, in their minds, proved it to them beyond a shadow of a doubt? I don't know that you can other than pointing out how common such experiences are for people of all religions. How are we to judge which claims are reliable and which aren't?
Dilettante
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I am certain that no omnipotent gods exist who want me to believe they exist.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
Maybe. Who the **** knows.
Pepper Brooks
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AG
kurt vonnegut said:

Maybe. Who the **** knows.
Agnosticism is the only reasonable stance on the existence of a deity if people are thinking clearly.
Catag94
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AG
Anyone who can look at and experience this universe and certainly this world and all that it has in it and not see ample evidence that a creator (GOD) exists is not going to be convinced by the offerings on this board
Pepper Brooks
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AG
Do you believe our species knows enough about biology , history, and evolution to make a provable ruling on the intelligent design vs evolution debate?
Dilettante
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NTXAg10 said:

Do you believe our species knows enough about biology , history, and evolution to make a provable ruling on the intelligent design vs evolution debate?
I do.

Edit: We can be confident about what the evidence points to. We can't prove much of anything in life obviously.
Pepper Brooks
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AG
There are a number of examples throughout history where evidence has changed on some very big topics. The evidence once suggested the world was flat, for instance. Why is knowledge on this topic any less transient, unknowable, or subject to change?

Additionally, how is there credibility in the data if we rely solely on testimony by scholars who died 1000+ years ago?

As a reminder, I'm not attempting to prove atheism. Only that the existence of god is unknowable.
Dilettante
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The earth being flat is a silly comparison for lots of reasons.

I'm not sure what the rest of your post is referring to.
Aggrad08
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AG
NTXAg10 said:

kurt vonnegut said:

Maybe. Who the **** knows.
Agnosticism is the only reasonable stance on the existence of a deity if people are thinking clearly.


Which god? I'd agree for any and all gods. But if we say Thor, Zeus, El, YHWH, Baal, Vishnu, I'd say we can move beyond "who the hell knows" to "probably not"
Bryanisbest
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AG
I knew the answer at once when I saw a mother cow lay down on the side of her calf to block a cold north wind.
Beer Baron
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AG
What about my friend's hamster who ate her babies?
Rocag
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AG
Even if an appreciation of nature was an acceptable proof of the existence of god (which I don't believe it is), how is that an argument for the Christian god in particular? Lots of deities are associated with nature and creation so why can't we take that as evidence for them instead?
Dilettante
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Beer Baron said:

What about my friend's hamster who ate her babies?
More evidence for theism.

chimpanzee
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You're not going to be able to know/prove anything. Neither are you going to be able to prove nothing. Perhaps ascribing metaphysical meaning to the universe is a coping mechanism for that uncertainty, but its one with a nearly universal uptake.

The argument from contingency makes the most sense to me, but take that for what its worth, I don't claim to have it fully absorbed myself. It's based on Aristotle, Aquinas and others.

The god of the gaps assumption is perhaps the worst reason to believe, and it's what a lot of children are taught with awful catechism, that leads to a loss of faith when science figures out something that was deemed to be a mystery. The whole Galileo affair, and it's embellishments by both sides get into the muck of this type of approach.

It can be a good faith debate, but rarely is. The most compelling question I have run across to date has been, "why is there something instead of nothing". If it is all just cosmic happenstance, nothing actually matters at all.
OilAgJD03
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AG
OP, are you familiar with Aquinas's 5 Ways?

Funny enough my buddy posted on here a few days ago that our rugby club is actually starting a multi week series on the 5 Ways, each being a logical proof for the existence of God.
Zobel
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AG
Re: Galileo affair. You must read this.

http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-great-ptolemaic-smackdown-table-of.html?m=1
chimpanzee
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Zobel said:

Re: Galileo affair. You must read this.

http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-great-ptolemaic-smackdown-table-of.html?m=1

Just skimmed, but this is nice...

Quote:

A troll and glory hog named Galileo swooped in, claimed credit for everything in sight, and delayed acceptance of heliocentrism for the rest of his lifetime. But that is a story for another time; viz.,
PellsBells09
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AG
This is from a man who thought a lot about this subject. Primary two arguments against existence of God (listed with more comprehensive treatment below):
1) Evil/pain exists.
2) Nature is self-evident.

(can easily find source text in the public domain)
From the Summa Theologica (St. Thomas Aquinas)
First Part, Question 2, Article 3

QUESTION: Whether God exists?

Objection 1: It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2: Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; in all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.

On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Ex. 3:14)

I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

1) The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

2) The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

3) The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

4) The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

5) The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.


Reply to Objection 1: As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, he would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that he should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good.

Reply to Objection 2: Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article.
Zobel
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AG
It's worth reading the whole thing. One of the best things on the Internet.
747Ag
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AG
Zobel said:

Re: Galileo affair. You must read this.

http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-great-ptolemaic-smackdown-table-of.html?m=1
Oh yes! This is one of my favorites. I very much enjoyed his novel Eifelheim too, but for very different reasons.
Quad Dog
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AG
That's a whole lot of words about the unmoved mover concept, but stops applying the concept to the prime mover itself. Why are none of those principles applied to God? Why stop applying the concept once you get to God?
In short, if God made the world? Who made God?


Also the motion argument breaks down once we get into Newton and Einstein. There is no such thing as absolute motion. That everything is moving in relation to something else.
AggieRain
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AG
Dilettante said:

Beer Baron said:

What about my friend's hamster who ate her babies?
More evidence for theism.


This painting has always freaked me out...the mythology said that he swallowed them whole!
AggieRain
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AG
dargscisyhp said:

I've been on this board for eightish years, and have never actually seen this discussed. Also, I'm rather bored at the moment.

Most of us are polite, and we try to work off the premises of the person we're having a discussion with. I rarely see the other person's fundamental beliefs themselves challenged. So here is a thread to do that.

Does God exist? Why or why not?
Didn't we do this one a few years back? I'm too lazy to search threads. I want to say that we got to a point where agnostic atheism and agnostic deism kind of ended up at the same singularity.
barbacoa taco
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AG
NTXAg10 said:

kurt vonnegut said:

Maybe. Who the **** knows.
Agnosticism is the only reasonable stance on the existence of a deity if people are thinking clearly.
I agree slightly but I also think there's no real difference between that and atheism. You either believe or you don't. Being unsure is pretty much the same as not believing IMO. I think people are just averse to using the term atheist because they equate it with aggressively believing there is no god when usually that's not the case.

As for me, I guess I'm with you. I really have no idea. But i think if he is out there he doesn't care much about what goes on here.
Silent For Too Long
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NTXAg10 said:

kurt vonnegut said:

Maybe. Who the **** knows.
Agnosticism is the only reasonable stance on the existence of a deity if people are thinking clearly.


I'm a clear thinking Gnostic and find the position quite reasonable so...

...no True Scottsman?
Dilettante
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larry culpepper said:

I think people are just averse to using the term atheist because they equate it with aggressively believing there is no god when usually that's not the case.
That's true in many cases, but in others the reverse happens. I think every person who doesn't believe in god on this board refers to themselves as an atheist to avoid the connotation that agnostics are uncertain. You can be certain that you do not believe while not making the claim that no god can exist. That's technically an agnostic position, but saying you're an atheist causes less confusion.
Star Wars Memes Only
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I'm an agnostic atheist. Checkmate to both of you single-labels
Dilettante
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Bryanisbest
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AG
Beer Baron said:

What about my friend's hamster who ate her babies?



Yep, the lion is out there roaming up and down seeking people to devour. 1 Pet 5:6.
Dilettante
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So is the hamster the lion and the babies are the people? I'm not following the comparison.
schmendeler
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AG
I don't know about god in general but the world we live in is a pretty clear refutation of a deity resembling the Christian god.
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