Gotta face it, we Christians believe some pretty strange stuff

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God Eph 2:8

It is God's gift that we believe pretty strange stuff.

It really is. We're just sort of dropped off and left to figure it out. What an odd situation.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God Eph 2:8

It is God's gift that we believe pretty strange stuff.

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I do not interpret it that way as I am not a Calvinist.

Grace is the free gift from God but we have to respond with faith.

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/Eph2_8.html

But it is all good as we are all believers and "saved".

To answer the op, I have a personal relationship with the Lord which is as real to me as the IPad I am typing this on.

And to be honest, I have no problem with Calvinists who say it is all from God or non Calvinists who believe we have a role.

The key is do you have the relationship however it occurs theologically. And it is evidenced by fruits.

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In that case I'd say the reason you believe is because you grew up in the U.S. with parents/family who were probably Christian.

Fair enough.

But there are numerous Biblical references to how faith is transmitted by families. Even that a non believer married to a believer is "saved" by the believer.

I do not understand how a Calvinist can explain why the vast majority of Christians live in traditional Christian countries and come from Christian families. Why are there not more elect as defined by Calvinists in other areas?

I do know there is explosive growth of Christianity in places like Africa and China. But they have to hear the Gospel to know what they believe and then decide. And then through the family unit Christianity spreads and is maintained. Has been the church model since the beginning of the church.

Even if I believed in election, do you think it's random? Like God pulling names out of a hat?

And God's people spreading through the family has been the model since Abraham.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Even if I believed in election, do you think it's random? Like God pulling names out of a hat?

And God's people spreading through the family has been the model since Abraham.

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Of course I believe in election as it is Biblical and in Scriptures.

I do not believe in the concept of election that believes double predestination. I do not believe in pre ordained limited atonement.

I believe in free will and that every person will have a chance, even if never hearing the Gospel, to reject or accept God's grace gift of Jesus and thus choosing faith.

So do you believe I'm going to heaven? Because I've obviously been told the Gospel, but I guess just not in convincing fashion. I don't think anyone on earth would reject the gift of salvation, if only the presenter could convince them of the validity of the offer.

When an Amazonian tribesman dies without being saved, is he given the same Gospel I was, or is he given more certainty? In other words, when those who haven't heard the good news die are they afforded certainty or are they made to guess like I am in life?

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I don't think anyone on earth would reject the gift of salvation, if only the presenter could convince them of the validity of the offer.

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I think that presumes a lot and I don't think many people are as rational about it as we like to think they are. (including myself).

You raise a bunch a good questions, the only answer I have is that we trust that God is good and will take care of it. In the end, we are only told that the harvest is plenty, but the workers are few. We need not concern ourselves with there being a harvest, as it were.

I think a lot of people in this board would reject salvation if it was presented to them by a Muslim or a Mormon. Even if they were super convincing.

Dilettante said:

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So do you believe I'm going to heaven? Because I've obviously been told the Gospel, but I guess just not in convincing fashion. I don't think anyone on earth would reject the gift of salvation, if only the presenter could convince them of the validity of the offer.

When an Amazonian tribesman dies without being saved, is he given the same Gospel I was, or is he given more certainty? In other words, when those who haven't heard the good news die are they afforded certainty or are they made to guess like I am in life?

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Do you disappoint yourself with your own actions? Do you find yourself at times reflecting, "I ought not to do that, but I do it anyway."

To me, this is evidence of the Divine Parenthood instructing our inner child on The Way. I believe we are all aware that we create disharmony both in our environments and ourselves with our actions and seek remedial recourse.

As for the afterlife, I lean towards the notion that all, in the end, will be "saved." However, I've personally found it of little value to focus on such things. How am I living this life, undisirregardlessness of any particularly post life reward?

I sincerely try to do good for goodness sake, knowing full well no matter how good I am I do not deserve anything beyond the life I have been given.

If anything lies beyond, for me, it will be because the Divine Wills it, not because of anything I did to deserve it.

There is a sociopathic subset of the population that appears not to feel these emotions and have thoughts of remorse or self condemnation relative to their actions hurting others. I'm not sure what exactly the physiological differences are but I'm guessing it's a pretty minor thing.

And while I agree with a basic "be kind" philosophy and to trust if any gods exist that have an iota of sense they will also see this as the only thing truly worth judging.

I question the premise that any life is deserved, or that accordingly any death is deserved. Some lives are truly miserable suffering, it's easy to forget that in our air conditioned wealthy bubble world. And I do not really see why non existence is something deserved even given that life itself couldnt possibly be earned.

I think we are just scratching the surface of sociopathic tendencies but I believe there is much more going on under the surface then our current diagnostic and data collection techniques are capable of extracting.

As a somewhat related note, modern psychology/psychiatry didn't even recognize recognize identity disorder (or what was once described as multiple personality disorder) as a real thing until quite recently (last 30 years or so), and it still struggles to really grasp what it really is.

As someone who has a very intimate experience with another with identity disorder, and who has spent the bulk of his adult life trying to understand her, I'm personally rather well versed in the subject.

One of her personalities exhibits all the characteristics that we would typically describe as sociopathic. I feel quite strongly that this personality of hers was cultivated by her mind to protect her inner child from intense and traumatic experiences. It's essentially her shield from the world she can't personally process. (Blessidly, as she has grown and matured, and healed through her life, she has managed to reincorporate the defensive tendencies of that personality into her overall apparatus of her mental conception.)

I would posit that those who we would describe as sociopathic have effectively allowed a defense mechanism to take over their ego. It has effectively forced the Divine Parenthood out and taken the reigns. From what we do know, this seems to almost always be in response to incredibly traumatic childhood experience.

I say all that so say this. While we can point to others and ask "what about them?" Ultimatley we need to reconcile our own inner experiences. Do you personally not like how you act at times, and do you desire to do better?

I would also warn against framing it in terms of judgement. Whether we are to be punished or rewarded is irrelevant to the now and the life we currently have, at least hope to have, some level of control over. Do you feel your life is worth living? Do you feel that you can improve how you live it? I think those are the fundamental questions we all must resolve.

If we personally affirm a positive answer to both, then we start searching for The Way to do so.

dermdoc said:

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I do know there is explosive growth of Christianity in places like Africa and China. But they have to hear the Gospel to know what they believe and then decide. And then through the family unit Christianity spreads and is maintained. Has been the church model since the beginning of the church.

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God makes Himself known through his creation, nature.

"I don't know what your name is or where you are but through your creation I believe in you and your power. Please remember me, please save me."

I've been told people will also be given a chance at the final judgement. How anyone rejects God then will be something, but I'm sure they will.

dds08 said:

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dermdoc said:

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I do know there is explosive growth of Christianity in places like Africa and China. But they have to hear the Gospel to know what they believe and then decide. And then through the family unit Christianity spreads and is maintained. Has been the church model since the beginning of the church.

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God makes Himself known through his creation, nature.

"I don't know what your name is or where you are but through your creation I believe in you and your power. Please remember me, please save me."

I've been told people will also be given a chance at the final judgement. How anyone rejects God then will be something, but I'm sure they will.

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Completely agree.

I was just trying to answer how my upbringing affected my faith.

Dilettante said:

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So do you believe I'm going to heaven? Because I've obviously been told the Gospel, but I guess just not in convincing fashion. I don't think anyone on earth would reject the gift of salvation, if only the presenter could convince them of the validity of the offer.

When an Amazonian tribesman dies without being saved, is he given the same Gospel I was, or is he given more certainty? In other words, when those who haven't heard the good news die are they afforded certainty or are they made to guess like I am in life?

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I do not know where you live but would be happy to invite you to church if possible or present the Gospel to you in person.

stbabs said:

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Gotta face it, we Christians believe some pretty strange stuff

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I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic* church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

*that is, the true Christian church of all times and all places

HTH

that's just listing the weird stuffy not saying why you believe it

I think its interesting that you used a minority creed, and even had to asterisk a portion of that minority creed, in order to say what Christians believe.

Zobel said:

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I think its interesting that you used a minority creed, and even had to asterisk a portion of that minority creed, in order to say what Christians believe.

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I believe that is the one I say daily from the Anglican book of common prayer.

Please educate me.

Never mind as I looked it up.

Zobel said:

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I think its interesting that you used a minority creed, and even had to asterisk a portion of that minority creed, in order to say what Christians believe.

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And it is the core of what I believe.

Thanks for the kind offer. I appreciate it, and maybe one day I'll take you up on it. I still value anonymity too much. And frankly, I don't want to know who you people are either. Not because I don't like you, but because it would fundamentally change what this place is to me.

Never meet your heroes.

Dilettante said:

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Thanks for the kind offer. I appreciate it, and maybe one day I'll take you up on it. I still value anonymity too much. And frankly, I don't want to know who you people are either. Not because I don't like you, but because it would fundamentally change what this place is to me.

Never meet your heroes.

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The most superb reasoning for anonymity I've read on here in quite some time.