II Corinthians 10:12
My assertion is that first century Judaism was swimming in the bad doctrine of being justified by works of the Law and your assertion is that you see no evidence in the New Testament that speaks against this bad doctrine?Martin Q. Blank said:I find no evidence that the Pharisees or 1st century Judaism thought this.Win At Life said:
Some of you guys are close, but still missing a key connection. The Pharisees to the Law that was meant to be followed as a way to live at peace with God and mankind, and perverted that into a path to earn salvation. The Law never says to follow the Law in order to earn salvation. That was the bad doctrine of 1st century Judaism Yeshua was trying to show them the absurdity of by taking to its illogical extreme.
To be fair the New Testament doesn't paint the best picture of the Pharisees.Martin Q. Blank said:
I have the general feeling that we shouldn't do that. But Jesus says
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 5:20
That the Pharisees thought the law was the path to earn salvation? Yah, I don't see it.Win At Life said:My assertion is that first century Judaism was swimming in the bad doctrine of being justified by works of the Law and your assertion is that you see no evidence in the New Testament that speaks against this bad doctrine?Martin Q. Blank said:I find no evidence that the Pharisees or 1st century Judaism thought this.Win At Life said:
Some of you guys are close, but still missing a key connection. The Pharisees to the Law that was meant to be followed as a way to live at peace with God and mankind, and perverted that into a path to earn salvation. The Law never says to follow the Law in order to earn salvation. That was the bad doctrine of 1st century Judaism Yeshua was trying to show them the absurdity of by taking to its illogical extreme.
Jesus here teaches the benchmark is the Pharisees.Zobel said:
I think it is a process which is experienced and lived out in the various ways St Paul describes it. Knowing how you're doing is like anything else in life. St John gives a lot of "by this we know" statements, but you can measure against a benchmark (which is Christ), be in communion and fellowship with others, and have a spiritual father or counselor who can teaching and admonish you, as St Paul says.
And I think He was saying that they were a low benchmark because they did compare each other's righteousness by how well they followed the Law.Martin Q. Blank said:Jesus here teaches the benchmark is the Pharisees.Zobel said:
I think it is a process which is experienced and lived out in the various ways St Paul describes it. Knowing how you're doing is like anything else in life. St John gives a lot of "by this we know" statements, but you can measure against a benchmark (which is Christ), be in communion and fellowship with others, and have a spiritual father or counselor who can teaching and admonish you, as St Paul says.
Show me that in the context. It's clear to me he meant them as a high standard.dermdoc said:And I think He was saying that they were a low benchmark because they did compare each other's righteousness by how well they followed the Law.Martin Q. Blank said:Jesus here teaches the benchmark is the Pharisees.Zobel said:
I think it is a process which is experienced and lived out in the various ways St Paul describes it. Knowing how you're doing is like anything else in life. St John gives a lot of "by this we know" statements, but you can measure against a benchmark (which is Christ), be in communion and fellowship with others, and have a spiritual father or counselor who can teaching and admonish you, as St Paul says.
I think Christ was saying true righteousness only comes from a change of the heart by the Holy Spirit, not be following the Law.
Martin Q. Blank said:Show me that in the context. It's clear to me he meant them as a high standard.dermdoc said:And I think He was saying that they were a low benchmark because they did compare each other's righteousness by how well they followed the Law.Martin Q. Blank said:Jesus here teaches the benchmark is the Pharisees.Zobel said:
I think it is a process which is experienced and lived out in the various ways St Paul describes it. Knowing how you're doing is like anything else in life. St John gives a lot of "by this we know" statements, but you can measure against a benchmark (which is Christ), be in communion and fellowship with others, and have a spiritual father or counselor who can teaching and admonish you, as St Paul says.
I think Christ was saying true righteousness only comes from a change of the heart by the Holy Spirit, not be following the Law.
Change of heart allows following the law. It's not a dichotomy.