Redstone said:

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Without the Sacraments, the "center" of a service is charism and then the eventual fall, as we are all sinners. No matter how much we know of the Bible.

Only Christ endures. The Sacraments are essential for worship.

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I agree. The sermon isn't the point. It's just interesting to me that the people who supposedly stand for accountability are outsourcing their sermons. Degrees in theology and they do sermons by committee. And oh by the way, the EthicsRLC guys wanted these people in charge.

It's been a problem that the laity outsources their theology by seeking online gatekeepers, moreso during COVID when some forsook meeting in person. But now we see that pastors have been too. So where does their theology come from? Who's actually leading their congregation? It's not them. And likewise the ERLC or SBC too. Our country seems more and more like That Hideous Strength every day.

I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

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https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

Redstone said:

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The Catholic Church has some massive problems - including IMO literal demonic infiltration via various forms of clericism and sodomical undue influence throughout the 20th Century, as even "leftist" investigators like Sipe have detailed.

However

The Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) Church has as the "center" (source and summit of worship according to the Catechism) of a service, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ Himself, in the Sacrament.

All of the many varieties of Protestants, SBC especially, have as the center / summit of the service ..... what? The charism of the speaker?

This is a fundamental problem.

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While I agree regarding the importance of the sacraments (communion, baptism IMHO), I disagree that the institutional church is the same thing as the mystical body of Christ. And the sermon (homily) should be a teaching/encouragement/testimony tool to connect believers to core Christian doctrine. The intake of correct doctrine (scripture) is the lifeblood of a believe because that Living Word changes individuals. That fruit of change is what distinguishes a Christian from an otherwise worldly person who simply goes through the motions of ritual worship. I am not critiquing those who emphasize the sacraments, but subservience to clergy who fail to live holiness in their lives is not helpful either to clergy or lay believers. That was one of my problems with the modern Methodist church: that it abandoned the teaching of personal holiness and primacy of scripture and surrendered to contemporary culture.

AGC said:

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Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

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https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

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Mentioning Pandora in the allegorical sense gave me the thought that it sounds like reading someone else's podcast script at that point.

Managing a large church/congregation/parish is a tough model. Providing pastoral care to a large group of people and making decisions of where millions of dollars will go are going to be very tough to do for any individual tasked with ultimate responsibility for both.

What was Church organization for 1,500 years before Luther, when despite its many civil wars there was Apostolic commonality?

This "meta" issue is inescapable only via becoming Orthodox or Catholic.

AGC said:

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Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

---

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

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If they are planning out an entire sermon series then I agree that is too much. Many churches have executive pastors to help manage the "business" side of the church so they head pastor can focus on pastoring the flock.

chimpanzee said:

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AGC said:

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Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

---

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

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Mentioning Pandora in the allegorical sense gave me the thought that it sounds like reading someone else's podcast script at that point.

Managing a large church/congregation/parish is a tough model. Providing pastoral care to a large group of people and making decisions of where millions of dollars will go are going to be very tough to do for any individual tasked with ultimate responsibility for both.

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Edit: I missed the meaning the first time but I like your response. It is just like that. Lots of pastors put their stuff out there and I know people who would have to drive two hours to listen to the preacher they stream each Sunday.

To frok, I would ask the question of how big is too big? What's a size where the pastor knows his congregation and can shepherd them and relate to them?

Beyond that a bishop would be more appropriate no? They'd help each parish and would be a resource to be used instead of grad students that's wholly more appropriate. Contrary to redstone's assertion, anglicans are fine too and had a thriving church before Rome arrived in the English isles, even sending delegates to councils in the 300s. The bigger point stands though, that another person who's shepherding you exists to offer guidance in this context whose doctrine you trust and authority you submit to.

Executive pastor is a business development position aren't they?

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Contrary to redstone's assertion, anglicans are fine too and had a thriving church before Rome arrived in the English isles, even sending delegates to councils in the 300s.

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Apostolic - united by spirit and understanding of Council of Florence

Catholic and Orthodox despite many sad divisions

Redstone said:

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Quote:

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Contrary to redstone's assertion, anglicans are fine too and had a thriving church before Rome arrived in the English isles, even sending delegates to councils in the 300s.

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Apostolic - united by spirit and understanding of Council of Florence

Catholic and Orthodox despite many sad divisions

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We'll leave this for another thread.

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To frok, I would ask the question of how big is too big? What's a size where the pastor knows his congregation and can shepherd them and relate to them?

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I don't know, generally churches have a whole pastoral staff (Childrens/Family/Mens/Womens Pastors) to help support the congregation. Depends on the size of the church.

There are no bishops in the Baptist church so that option isn't there.

Executive Pastor roles probably differ across churches. At my church he manages the staff, the building, finances, etc.

Frok said:

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Quote:

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To frok, I would ask the question of how big is too big? What's a size where the pastor knows his congregation and can shepherd them and relate to them?

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I don't know, generally churches have a whole pastoral staff (Childrens/Family/Mens/Womens Pastors) to help support the congregation. Depends on the size of the church.

There are no bishops in the Baptist church so that option isn't there.

Executive Pastor roles probably differ across churches. At my church he manages the staff, the building, finances, etc.

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Oh I know as I left a Baptist church last fall. However at the size you're at the lead pastor functions more as a bishop. He can't know everyone so he relies on the other pastors or even Sunday school leaders. That's the irony of the structure, it's too big to Shepherd the whole congregation so it's delegated. That's why you write by committee or outsource help. But that means he'll struggle to speak to the whole congregation where they are and he also lacks an authority above himself to appeal to for help. It's one of the reasons I left; it's operated like a business, there's a managerial outlook. The question is never asked, are we too big? It is always how to grow and manage the growth and the structure makes the church larger than the neighborhood which introduces a lot that we haven't touched on.

But that's why I ask. Size drives these approaches in evangelical circles in a way that local church models don't and won't struggle with them.

What about large churches in other denominations? How do they handle it? Isn't it really just the same thing with different titles?

Redstone said:

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The Catholic Church has some massive problems - including IMO literal demonic infiltration via various forms of clericism and sodomical undue influence throughout the 20th Century, as even "leftist" investigators like Sipe have detailed.

However

The Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) Church has as the "center" (source and summit of worship according to the Catechism) of a service, the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ Himself, in the Sacrament.

All of the many varieties of Protestants, SBC especially, have as the center / summit of the service ..... what? The charism of the speaker?

This is a fundamental problem.

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The Bible, usually.

Frok said:

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What about large churches in other denominations? How do they handle it? Isn't it really just the same thing with different titles?

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No idea. We joined one with less than 200 people that will likely plant another church if it hits 250. It's more aligned with being a local church, planted in a community/neighborhood to invest in rather than a city. It was an intentional choice on our part.

Who interprets? The text itself..the same texts decided over 3 centuries in councils from Rome and Anatolia? Or the many interpreters, many of them hugely learned, which has seen division upon division?

Enoch, quoted in Jude, excluded why?
Hebrews and Revelation, once massively controversial, included why?

Because the Apostolic Church said so.

AGC said:

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Thought this would be a good thread to bump for the SBC scandal after their recent elections. Elected guy plagiarized sermons without attribution (from former president among others) and apparently he and the former SBC president used Docent Research Group? for help writing sermons. What a bizarre chain of events but perhaps fitting for Moore's choice since Moore himself forgot what the E part of ERLC stood for in attempting to release an 'October surprise' to get his preferred candidate elected.

Edit: Aggie related because central's lead pastor is the one that leaked the audio recordings from what I can tell from his public Twitter posts. I've been told he used to work for Russell Moore too (confirmed on his public church bio, seven years at the ERLC).

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this has been my problem with Moore. I like his teaching for the most part. I like his focuses on adoption and scripture. I was more than happy for the SBC to divest itself from being an arm of the RNC.


However, this part of the leaked letter:

Quote:

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The lazy journalistic assessment would be that this is about the President of the United States. This has nothing to do with that. Y'all know my concerns about the perennial temptation toward political captivity of the gospel, and that will always and perhaps increasingly be a concern in this era. But this is not the issue here. Most Trump voters and supporters have been nothing but kind and encouraging to me from Southern Baptist laypeople and pastors to Administration officials all the way up and down the ranks. Just as we did with President Obama, we express disagreement where warranted, but we do so respecting the office and doing so requesting a different viewpoint, not engaging in polemics or attack. And when we agree with what the Administration is doing, we say so and work to achieve good public policy as informed by a biblically-grounded ethic, again just as we did when we could under President Obama, and as I did, before I was in this role, with President Bush. The Administration has asked us to take leadership on too many issues to list here from working on opioid and mental health concerns in faith-based communities to ensuring religious liberty for adoption providers to working on the plight of persecuted Christians and other religious minorities in China and elsewhere.

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I find to be patently dishonest from him.

I find that Moore never once seemed to trumpet the last administration's take on these issues where they lined up with the SBC's interest and he just lobbed bombs at Trump constantly. I, in no way, endorse Trump, but Moore just seemed like he wanted to slow creep the party to the DNC the way it was previously (in error) to the RNC.

A denomination rooted in A - repeat, a - primacy of individual conscience will always face such root problems and arguments, and I say this with familial affection.

We must return to Christ in the Eucharist.

Frok said:

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AGC said:

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Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

---

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

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If they are planning out an entire sermon series then I agree that is too much. Many churches have executive pastors to help manage the "business" side of the church so they head pastor can focus on pastoring the flock.

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Here's a thread that encapsulates the issue (no discussion of third parties writing it and IMO that makes it a much stronger critique):

When I entered the #SermonGate discussion back at the beginning of July I was disturbed, but committed to keeping an open mind. I haven't mentioned resignation, discipline, etc. in part because I haven't seen all the evidence. I did note the importance of the responses. (Thread.) https://t.co/65nl9hZImO

— 𝐂𝐡𝐫𝐢𝐬 𝐁𝐨𝐥𝐭 (@clbolt) July 19, 2021

Redstone said:

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A denomination rooted in A - repeat, a - primacy of individual conscience will always face such root problems and arguments, and I say this with familial affection.

We must return to Christ in the Eucharist.

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Besides individual conscience, what else is there in determining whether or not to follow Jesus?

The Holy Spirit

As a Catholic, one trusts in God Himself, prayer, the Bible (a literal product of the Apostolic Church codified in the 3rd Century), intercession, holy priests (too few,) and the Peterine promise (yes, Francis is awful).

As a Baptist, I missed Sacraments, and the Eucharist especially - which is Christ Himself.

AGC said:

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Frok said:

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AGC said:

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Frok said:

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I haven't really kept up with this, what is the Docent Research Group? Are they affiliated with any particular church? I know the pastor of my church probably uses numerous sources when putting together a sermon series so I can see how something like that would be useful. However I understand the issue if that research group has an agenda contrary to the church they could implant things into sermon series.

That's pretty crazy that the SBC president completely ripped off a sermon. I don't particularly agree with the points in the sermon he copied but that is a different point for a different day.

---

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-research/

https://www.docentgroup.com/sermon-series-planning/

Grad students will read and critique your sermon while providing appropriate anecdotes, commentaries, etc. because you're too busy managing your mega church. They'll also plan out an entire series.

How much can you delegate before you're no longer a pastor? Do you know your flock if someone else is helping you connect your sermon to them? How much do you need to know to prepare a sermon and has your seminary prepared you if you need this instead? It's a Pandora's box

---

If they are planning out an entire sermon series then I agree that is too much. Many churches have executive pastors to help manage the "business" side of the church so they head pastor can focus on pastoring the flock.

---

Here's a thread that encapsulates the issue (no discussion of third parties writing it and IMO that makes it a much stronger critique):

When I entered the #SermonGate discussion back at the beginning of July I was disturbed, but committed to keeping an open mind. I haven't mentioned resignation, discipline, etc. in part because I haven't seen all the evidence. I did note the importance of the responses. (Thread.) https://t.co/65nl9hZImO

— 𝐂𝐡𝐫𝐢𝐬 𝐁𝐨𝐥𝐭 (@clbolt) July 19, 2021

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So bazaar, you think you would at least change the anecdotes if you are going to copy the sermon