One of the things I think people miss when reading the NT is the significance of the account between Jesus and the raging sea. I think far too many people interpret it solely as a statement of powers over elemental forces rather than a spiritual statement. The Sea of Galilee is associated with Ugaritic gods of chaos, one of which is Lotan, also known as Leviathan. The NT account should be read as an account of Jesus power over Leviathan. Because had Jesus not demonstrated this power, we might fail to see Him as Messiah because of the communication between God and Job in the Book of Job. There, God challenges Job to pierce Leviathan with a hook in order to pull it out of the water Job realizes that only God can control leviathan.

Leviathan is mentioned by name six times in the Hebrew Bible (Job 3:8; 41:1; Ps. 74:14; 104:26; Isa. 27:1). Most of these passages assert or allude to Yahweh's power and control of the sea monster (Leviathan). This mythological background of the deity battling and defeating a sea monster is most evident in Psalm 74:14 and Isa 27:1. The only detailed physical description of Leviathan in the Bible is found in Job 41, where it describes a powerful and fearsome creature that cannot be tamed or subdued by human power. It has fearsome teeth. Job 41:14. Impenetrable scales. Job 41:15-17. It breathes fire and smoke. Job 41:18-21. It breaks through iron and bronze as though they are iron and wood. Job 41:27. This powerful sea serpent also has powers over the ocean. It can control the ocean.

Job 3:8 -- Let those who curse the day curse it, those prepared to stir up Leviathan.
Job 7:12 -- Am I the sea or the sea serpent that you set a guard over me?
Job 26:12 -- By his power he stilled the sea; by his insight he smote Rahab.
Job 28:14 -- The deep says, "It is not in me," and the sea says, "It is not with me.".
Job 38:8 -- Who knit the sea together behind doors; who brought it forth gushing from the womb?
Job 41:1 -- Can you draw out Leviathan by hook or tie down its tongue with a line?
Can you put a cord through its nose or pierce its jaw with a barb? Will it keep begging for mercy? Will it speak to you gently?

In Ugaritic literature, this same creature, known as Lotan, is a sea monster depicted as a ruling deity that appears as a twisting serpent or a seven-headed dragon. Some sources identify Leviathan as a crocodile, which was the symbol of kingship and the ruler-cult of Egypt. In the OT Yahweh defeated this creature in the deliverance of his people form Egypt (cf. Ps. 74:14). And he will defeat Leviathan again in the final apocalyptic battle (Isa. 27:1).

In the New Testament, an account of an Angelic battle with Leviathan is found in Mark 4:35-40.

In verse 39 Jesus' words mirror His response to the unclean spirit at Capernaum (Mark 1:25). This suggests that the storm is no ordinary storm, but a physical manifestation of evil in the form of a raging sea. Since Leviathan has power over the ocean, this demonstrates that the event was also supernatural and foreshadows the final battle between Jesus and Leviathan in Revelation. Revelation 17:1-13. Details of the interaction between Jesus and Leviathan are found in Robert S. Fyall's book, "Now my Eyes have seen You: Images of creation and evil in the book of Job". The way in which Fyall deals with the sea motif in his forth chapter ("The Raging Sea"), first the texts in Job and then subsequently relating it to the calming of the sea by Jesus in the gospels will be illuminating for many who have not studied the topic (this book having been written primarily for evangelicals).

You'd likely enjoy Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It goes into spiritual warfare in ANE context, and he talks extensively on the use of such language.

PacifistAg said:

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You'd likely enjoy Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It goes into spiritual warfare in ANE context, and he talks extensively on the use of such language.

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I think I agree to some extent. I think that the crucifixion is over emphasized by post-moderns and the early Roman churches. I think a lot of it has to do with a desire to demonstrate the superiority of western culture over Jewish culture in that the "King" of the Jews was murdered by the Romans. But, the disciples and the pre-Nicene church believed that the resurrection held the key to salvation, not the crucifixion. They believed it because (1) the holy spirit did not dwell in the entire population until Jesus was resurrected (2) resurrection is necessary for judgement (even sinners and the wicked are resurrected and have a second (albeit short) life and (3) what paul meant by the spiritual body.

https://www.ancientjewreview.com/articles/2018/7/30/resurrection-as-salvation-development-and-conflict-in-pre-nicene-paulinism

PacifistAg said:

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I think that the crucifixion is over emphasized

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No. And goodness, stop with the nonsensical "post-moderns" garbage. The crucifixion is the ultimate display of God's love for His creation. Want to know what God looks like? Look to the cross. It's far from "over-emphasized".

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Seems like you want Him to remain crucified. That's all you talk about is the cross. The kingdom of God is not the cross, but the LIFE of Jesus Christ. The life of Jesus is the destruction of Rome.

Bryanisbest said:

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codker92 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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You'd likely enjoy Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It goes into spiritual warfare in ANE context, and he talks extensively on the use of such language.

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I think I agree to some extent. I think that the crucifixion is over emphasized by post-moderns and the early Roman churches. I think a lot of it has to do with a desire to demonstrate the superiority of western culture over Jewish culture in that the "King" of the Jews was murdered by the Romans. But, the disciples and the pre-Nicene church believed that the resurrection held the key to salvation, not the crucifixion. They believed it because (1) the holy spirit did not dwell in the entire population until Jesus was resurrected (2) resurrection is necessary for judgement (even sinners and the wicked are resurrected and have a second (albeit short) life and (3) what paul meant by the spiritual body.

https://www.ancientjewreview.com/articles/2018/7/30/resurrection-as-salvation-development-and-conflict-in-pre-nicene-paulinism

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Crucifixion is the only thing in the Bible that CANNOT be over emphasized. "For I have determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2

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Yup. Christ crucified is where the nature of God is most clearly revealed.

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I would say that the Cross can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with the Resurrection. Just as Christ Jesus' Humanity can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with His Deity.

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This.

Zobel said:

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Anything can be overemphasized. It's not a death cult.

Even that 1 Corinthians quote isn't saying "I didn't talk about the resurrection". Not at all. The point St Paul is making there is that to the pagans and Jews of the time, the cross was foolish. As noted, it is precisely in the Cross that the power of God is revealed. When St Paul says, I knew nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified the point is that he didn't come teaching with his own eloquence but teaching Christ - and teaching Christ as revealed in the wisdom of God, which is in the crucifixion. It's a rebuttal to the "wise" teachers who were teaching something else, who were saying they were mature, or they knew things, who obviously scoffed at or rejected the idea that a God should be victorious in death.

I would say that the Cross can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with the Resurrection. Just as Christ Jesus' Humanity can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with His Deity.

On the other hand, I think codker92's point - especially that the reverence of the cross is somehow related to a western culture over a Jewish culture - is inane pseudo-intellectual gibbering.

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Yes it is the only true cult. Yes, a death cult. We have no part in the resurrection. We do have a part in the co-crucifixion with Christ. Gal 2:20; 2 Cor 4:10-11. We die daily. 1 Cor 15:31. It is a dying before you die. A dying of the great enemy under our skin: the human ego, the old self. We must decrease for Him to increase. John 3:30. We must undergo kenosis, an emptying out (death) of the Self. Philippians 2:5-9.

We faith thru the storms ("deaths oft") of life to reach resurrection transcendence.

Life, the life of God, springs out of death. There is no abundant life without our yielding to an abundant death.

I learned a lot of this from an oriental man, Watchman Nee, not a western theologian.

On some level this seems argument for argument's sake - as I said, we are not a death cult. We don't worship death. We are a Christ cult. Christianity is not about Christ's crucifixion per se, but about Christ Jesus which necessarily includes His Crucifixion - along with His Incarnation, teaching, Resurrection, and ultimately His revealing along with a definition of Who He Is.

The self that dies is not us qua us, but the sin in us. As you say, the old self dies, but that sin is foreign to our nature and ultimately foreign to us.

At any rate you're talking about the death which is tied to the Resurrection, and has the Resurrection in view - we don't die in order to die, but we die to live. So of course this is perfectly ok - the Cross is coupled with the Resurrection.

Absolutely correct. We die in order to live the resurrection life. We don't worship death. Death is an enemy of God and is not our friend. 1 Cor 15:25-26. But Christ died that we might live. We must participate with Him in His death to receive His life. The key is that we have a part in our death with Christ. We must consent to it. We must yield to it as did Jesus. I am crucified with Christ. I, the ego, no longer live but Christ now lives in me. Gal 2:20. We have no part in our resurrection. God does that. The fact that we have a part in the death is why we need to focus on it and our willingness to take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-24

Bryanisbest said:

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codker92 said:

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PacifistAg said:

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You'd likely enjoy Greg Boyd's Crucifixion of the Warrior God. It goes into spiritual warfare in ANE context, and he talks extensively on the use of such language.

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I think I agree to some extent. I think that the crucifixion is over emphasized by post-moderns and the early Roman churches. I think a lot of it has to do with a desire to demonstrate the superiority of western culture over Jewish culture in that the "King" of the Jews was murdered by the Romans. But, the disciples and the pre-Nicene church believed that the resurrection held the key to salvation, not the crucifixion. They believed it because (1) the holy spirit did not dwell in the entire population until Jesus was resurrected (2) resurrection is necessary for judgement (even sinners and the wicked are resurrected and have a second (albeit short) life and (3) what paul meant by the spiritual body.

https://www.ancientjewreview.com/articles/2018/7/30/resurrection-as-salvation-development-and-conflict-in-pre-nicene-paulinism

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Crucifixion is the only thing in the Bible that CANNOT be over emphasized. "For I have determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified." 1 Cor 2:2

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That is what % of the bible? How many books discuss the life of Christ or allude to it? I assert that more of the bible discusses Christ's life than His death.

Zobel said:

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Anything can be overemphasized. It's not a death cult.

Even that 1 Corinthians quote isn't saying "I didn't talk about the resurrection". Not at all. The point St Paul is making there is that to the pagans and Jews of the time, the cross was foolish. As noted, it is precisely in the Cross that the power of God is revealed. When St Paul says, I knew nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified the point is that he didn't come teaching with his own eloquence but teaching Christ - and teaching Christ as revealed in the wisdom of God, which is in the crucifixion. It's a rebuttal to the "wise" teachers who were teaching something else, who were saying they were mature, or they knew things, who obviously scoffed at or rejected the idea that a God should be victorious in death.

I would say that the Cross can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with the Resurrection. Just as Christ Jesus' Humanity can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with His Deity.

On the other hand, I think codker92's point - especially that the reverence of the cross is somehow related to a western culture over a Jewish culture - is inane pseudo-intellectual gibbering.

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Jesus is the god of life and not death.

Bryanisbest said:

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Absolutely correct. We die in order to live the resurrection life. We don't worship death. Death is an enemy of God and is not our friend. 1 Cor 15:25-26. But Christ died that we might live. We must participate with Him in His death to receive His life. The key is that we have a part in our death with Christ. We must consent to it. We must yield to it as did Jesus. I am crucified with Christ. I, the ego, no longer live but Christ now lives in me. Gal 2:20. We have no part in our resurrection. God does that. The fact that we have a part in the death is why we need to focus on it and our willingness to take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-24

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You worship a dead God apparently. My God is alive.

Zobel said:

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On some level this seems argument for argument's sake - as I said, we are not a death cult. We don't worship death. We are a Christ cult. Christianity is not about Christ's crucifixion per se, but about Christ Jesus which necessarily includes His Crucifixion - along with His Incarnation, teaching, Resurrection, and ultimately His revealing along with a definition of Who He Is.

The self that dies is not us qua us, but the sin in us. As you say, the old self dies, but that sin is foreign to our nature and ultimately foreign to us.

At any rate you're talking about the death which is tied to the Resurrection, and has the Resurrection in view - we don't die in order to die, but we die to live. So of course this is perfectly ok - the Cross is coupled with the Resurrection.

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Your god is dead. Mine is alive.

PacifistAg said:

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Quote:

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I would say that the Cross can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with the Resurrection. Just as Christ Jesus' Humanity can be overemphasized if it is not coupled with His Deity.

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This.

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Your god is dead. Mine is alive.

codker92 said:

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Bryanisbest said:

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Absolutely correct. We die in order to live the resurrection life. We don't worship death. Death is an enemy of God and is not our friend. 1 Cor 15:25-26. But Christ died that we might live. We must participate with Him in His death to receive His life. The key is that we have a part in our death with Christ. We must consent to it. We must yield to it as did Jesus. I am crucified with Christ. I, the ego, no longer live but Christ now lives in me. Gal 2:20. We have no part in our resurrection. God does that. The fact that we have a part in the death is why we need to focus on it and our willingness to take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-24

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You worship a dead God apparently. My God is alive.

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How do you deal with verses like these? I have determined to know nothing among save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2. I always carry about in my body the dying of the Lord Jesus in order that His life May be manifested in my mortal body. 2 Cor 4:10. . . . That I be conformed to His death. Philippians 3:10. Deny self and take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-23. A grain of wheat abides alone unless it falls into the ground and dies and then it bears much fruit. John 12:22-24. He who is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:7.

In order to live the resurrection life we can never get away from the cross.

Bryanisbest said:

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codker92 said:

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Bryanisbest said:

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Absolutely correct. We die in order to live the resurrection life. We don't worship death. Death is an enemy of God and is not our friend. 1 Cor 15:25-26. But Christ died that we might live. We must participate with Him in His death to receive His life. The key is that we have a part in our death with Christ. We must consent to it. We must yield to it as did Jesus. I am crucified with Christ. I, the ego, no longer live but Christ now lives in me. Gal 2:20. We have no part in our resurrection. God does that. The fact that we have a part in the death is why we need to focus on it and our willingness to take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-24

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You worship a dead God apparently. My God is alive.

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How do you deal with verses like these? I have determined to know nothing among save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2. I always carry about in my body the dying of the Lord Jesus in order that His life May be manifested in my mortal body. 2 Cor 4:10. . . . That I be conformed to His death. Philippians 3:10. Deny self and take up the cross daily. Luke 9:22-23. A grain of wheat abides alone unless it falls into the ground and dies and then it bears much fruit. John 12:22-24. He who is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:7.

In order to live the resurrection life we can never get away from the cross.

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(1) 1 Cor 2:2. It's hyperbole. Did the writer actually only know ONLY Jesus crucified? No! It's a rhetorical device. It is used because the Corinthians considered the cross foolishness. Christ's death was necessary for Him to preach to the spirits imprisoned in Hell, not for you to brag about.
(2) 2 Cor 4:10. It's describing Paul's representation of Jesus life. It's talking about Paul's suffering to display Gods power. It's another rhetorical device, not actually referring to literal death of Christ.
(3) Paul is comparing his ministry to Christ because apparently no one believes him because of his misfortune: Paul seems to recognize that suffering for the gospelbrings deeper fellowship with Christ. Paul sees his ministry as an extension of Jesus' ministry, portrayed in Isa 53's account of the Suffering Servant. The death is not the primary means of being conformed to Christ, it is life not death that conforms is to Christ.
(4) you are taking this out of context. A few verses later Jesus says that some PEOPLE WILL NOT SEE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM COME. The kingdom will not come until Jesus returns. He is referring to the Angel Death, a spirit. The first "death" is merely bodily, and thus not a true death. We will all see the kingdom in the second life.
(5) Jesus is merely stating how he will be cast to the ground and forsaken by the father. The death is figurative.
(6) Again, out of context. Believers "die" to their old self. Unbelievers who actually die are not free from sin.

If you believe what you think then go do it!

To get back to the original post. I'm sorry for not being eloquent and I'm sure someone can describe what Im trying to say better, but another way to look at the Liviathan and the sea is of course metaphorically. Back then the sea was seen as an unruly, worldly force. It was represented as chaos while land was something that was order.

Jesus having authority and power over Leviathan (the sea monster and ruler of chaos) is seen as Jesus' power over the ruler of the world and chaos.

Legal Custodian said:

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To get back to the original post. I'm sorry for not being eloquent and I'm sure someone can describe what Im trying to say better, but another way to look at the Liviathan and the sea is of course metaphorically. Back then the sea was seen as an unruly, worldly force. It was represented as chaos while land was something that was order.

Jesus having authority and power over Leviathan (the sea monster and ruler of chaos) is seen as Jesus' power over the ruler of the world and chaos.

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Yes exactly. It puts Jesus in a whole other category and foreshadows the final battle between good and evil.

Fantastic musical piece

Spyderman said:

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Fantastic musical piece

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Is that the first production? It's nice.