Scientists Recommend Dropping the 14 day Limit on Human Embryo Research

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ramblin_ag02
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8:30a, 5/27/21
AG
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/26/1000126212/new-guidelines-would-allow-experiments-on-more-mature-human-embryos

So this freaks me out a bit. I think the Christian opinion on this is pretty straightforward, but feel free to chime in as I like being surprised. I'm just a little baffled out the secular thoughts on this. The article keeps talking about having "oversight", but what principles exactly are guiding this "oversight"? Is everyone really happy with various 7 person panels across the world each setting a different definition for what is reasonable human experimentation?
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Rocag
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8:42a, 5/27/21
AG
That panel doesn't really have the power to enforce anything, does it? I was under the impression it could just make recommendations that would then have to be considered and then possibly implemented in each country. Whether any international organization should have the ability to dictate what research is or isn't acceptable is more of a political question.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:34a, 5/27/21
AG
In my mind, very weak arguments made for extending the limit. Its basically, 'We have a committee.' Yeah that clearly doesn't value embryonic life and is okay with this. What kind of committee is that.

And again, because they are arbitrary numbers, what is to say this doesn't get pushed again in a decade? There will always be more you can learn by watching it grow. Dangling the potential gains of new knowledge is just going to increase that appetite.

The current big stopping point is primordial streak. The creation of the nerves in the spine. How close are they going to allow themselves to ultimately get to a heartbeat before saying its too much?
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Dilettante
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 9:53a, 5/27/21
It can't get pushed again if they don't set a hard limit.

If the 14 day rule is arbitrary then I'm fine with extending it to wherever embryologists are comfortable. Overall I think the changes are likely for the best and have little downside besides public outcry.

A heartbeat seems arbitrary and unimportant as well. Developmental milestones should be nervous system related.
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to Dilettante • 11:03a, 5/27/21
AG
Dilettante said:
It can't get pushed again if they don't set a hard limit.

If the 14 day rule is arbitrary then I'm fine with extending it to wherever embryologists are comfortable. Overall I think the changes are likely for the best and have little downside besides public outcry.

A heartbeat seems arbitrary and unimportant as well. Developmental milestones should be nervous system related.
The formation of the zygote is the beginning of a human life. Any study in this is already a compromise, having moved the goalpost from creation of life to creation of personhood.

The 14 day rule was absolutely arbitrary, because the opposition was saying no experimentation - period. So 14 days was set because it was the first identifiable feature of its biology resembling human. Now the slippery slope is fully engaged. People have become desensitized to the 14 day limit and at the same time allured with the knowledge gain beyond it. Its now its time to push the limits again and the arbitrary backstops aren't chosen with a conservative resistance of staying absolutely as close to creation as possible. If you're already okay with moving beyond the primordeal streak, then you're probably not too far from being convinced that experimenting up to weeks 6-7 when heartbeats are detectable.

Clearly society has no consensus on when personhood begins (because its a purposefully vague term) and this will eventually spill over into terms that reflect abortion laws. Because thats how all these studies end.

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Star Wars Memes Only
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11:34a, 5/27/21
To be fair, life has only started once that we know of. Creation of life is not what's in question here, personhood is the issue whichever way you look at it.
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schmendeler
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11:38a, 5/27/21
AG
i'm not concerned about something that doesn't yet have a brain.
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Dilettante
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 11:45a, 5/27/21
Quote:
The formation of the zygote is the beginning of a human life.
I don't think this is a deeply meaningful statement.
Quote:
Clearly society has no consensus on when personhood begins (because its a purposefully vague term) and this will eventually spill over into terms that reflect abortion laws. Because thats how all these studies end.
I don't buy the slippery slope argument. Everyone involved has the best interest of everyone else at heart, which includes fetuses. There are forces pushing in both directions, even without people making religious claims.
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ramblin_ag02
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12:15p, 5/27/21
AG
I guess my question would be: From a secular standpoint, when do you stop? 14 days is arbitrary, as is a heartbeat, sensation of pain, viability, and so on. All of these things are arbitrary to one extent or another. So what's the framework that these multitudes of Review Boards are supposed to use when approving or rejecting research proposals?

This recommendation scares me, because it seems to be that a very large number scientists would prefer a free-for-all when it comes to human embryo/fetus research
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Dilettante
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 12:36p, 5/27/21
ramblin_ag02 said:
I guess my question would be: From a secular standpoint, when do you stop? 14 days is arbitrary, as is a heartbeat, sensation of pain, viability, and so on. All of these things are arbitrary to one extent or another. So what's the framework that these multitudes of Review Boards are supposed to use when approving or rejecting research proposals.
I think their suggested criteria are listed in their recommendations. You consider several different variables and determine if the research is worthwhile.

Your reference point for harm is the experience of the embryo. Heartbeats don't matter. Sensation of pain matters. Viability doesn't intrinsically matter but several other milestones which do matter have always passed by that point.
Quote:
This recommendation scares me, because it seems to be that a very large number scientists would prefer a free-for-all when it comes to human embryo/fetus research
I think there are close to 0 scientists who would prefer a free for all when it comes to human embryo/fetus research. I've never met one or heard the idea proposed in any form.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Dilettante • 12:58p, 5/27/21
AG
Quote:
I think there are close to 0 scientists who would prefer a free for all when it comes to human embryo/fetus research. I've never met one or heard the idea proposed in any form.
I mispoke. This recommendation makes me think that these scientists want a free for all. Because that's the practical effect of this recommendation. There's nothing mystical, magical, or perfect about Review Boards. Usually it's just a couple scientists, a couple of lawyers, and a couple of executives. If you're lucky, you get a bioethicist or a clergyperson of some variety. Yet this recommendation basically boils down to "we should be able to do any experiments approved by our review board"
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 3:11p, 5/27/21
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
I think there are close to 0 scientists who would prefer a free for all when it comes to human embryo/fetus research. I've never met one or heard the idea proposed in any form.
I mispoke. This recommendation makes me think that these scientists want a free for all. Because that's the practical effect of this recommendation. There's nothing mystical, magical, or perfect about Review Boards. Usually it's just a couple scientists, a couple of lawyers, and a couple of executives. If you're lucky, you get a bioethicist or a clergyperson of some variety. Yet this recommendation basically boils down to "we should be able to do any experiments approved by our review board"
Blue parachute for you.

Everyone on those review boards have a vested interest in seeing the science continue. There is no true contrarian position on those boards. They would get voted off, removed, or quit in frustration. Could someone even be allowed to sit on that committee if they called for even tighter restrictions on days?

Any discussion would revolve around ethical statements outlined by the professional societies, and not touch the moral underpinnings driving those ethical statements.

Its a farce that abdicates individual moral responsibility through a committee's action.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 3:42p, 5/27/21
AG
Honestly, I think it boils down to the lawyers chiming in about legality, liability and licensing. The executives worry about the public image of the institution and whether the research would bring prestige or ridicule. The scientists want to push ahead unless they have a personal grudge against the researcher making the request. The people asking the specific question as to whether this would be a good thing or a bad thing from a moral perspective would be an ethicist or clergyperson, and I'm not sure that all review boards even have those. IIRC, they also will sometimes through a "member of the public" on a review board, but it is typically just another lawyer not directly associated with the institution.
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Dilettante
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 4:36p, 5/27/21
It is the job of everyone on the review board to consider the ethics of the research they allow. Your description of scientists as always wanting to perform research no matter the cost is an inaccurate caricature. For examples look at animal use committees and the response from scientists to He Jiankui. Questionable research is heavily scrutinized. Scientists have no interest in allowing unethical research to take place. Nobody does.

The declaration that the switch to the use of review boards represents a "free for all" is complete nonsense.
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Star Wars Memes Only
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 7:03p, 5/27/21
one MEEN Ag said:
ramblin_ag02 said:
Blue parachute for you.

Ahh, so that's what that is. I always thought it was a diamond. What is a blue parachute supposed to symbolise?
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schmendeler
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In reply to Star Wars Memes Only • 8:19p, 5/27/21
AG
It is a diamond.
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Dilettante
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9:26p, 5/27/21
If souls are given out at conception, what happens if an embryo divides and is then split in 2? Is an additional soul added at that point or does the soul split? What if those split cells are then rejoined into a single embryo? Do we lose a soul? Do the souls fuse?

I'd assume conjoined twins have two souls, but I doubt a two cell embryo gets two souls.
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schmendeler
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In reply to Dilettante • 11:34p, 5/27/21
AG
I've seen it estimated that a third of all pregnancies self-terminate in the first trimester. What happens to those souls? Are they cycled back through for another shot at life? Are they sent to heaven? Are some elect and some not?
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Frok
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6:36a, 5/28/21
AG
I don't know what happens but that doesn't mean there are no souls and we should just freely experiment with human embryos.
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Rocag
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7:23a, 5/28/21
AG
Leads to an interesting question: If we were able to prove an embryo or fetus did not have a soul would its destruction still be a moral problem?
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Frok
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8:22a, 5/28/21
AG
I would still think it's wrong. You are still tampering with human life.

Edit: I'll add I'm not accusing scientists of being anti-ethical. I understand the potential benefits they see in this. I just find it ethically squishy.

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Dilettante
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In reply to Frok • 9:34a, 5/28/21
I tamper with human life most days. I have a freezer full of it. The cells I have are not embryos, but they are human and alive. I don't see any difference ethically between killing them and killing a zygote, except for the potential notion that a zygote has a soul.
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9:40a, 5/28/21
The cells you have in your freezer are not embryos, but are human and alive?

I get it, but giving off major serial killer vibes there, yo.
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Dilettante
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In reply to Star Wars Memes Only • 9:45a, 5/28/21
It puts the lotion in the culture media.

Henrietta's chopped up in the freezer, and her family has been trying to figure out what happened for decades.
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amercer
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11:05p, 5/29/21
AG
Technically I'm not sure it's possible yet, but from a theoretical standpoint any human derived cell line should be possible to reprogram into an embryo.
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