I am/have been a non-denominational Christian and am fairly new to the Episcopal church. I was recently married to my wife who was raised catholic and subsequently moved to the Episcopal church. Medium size church in a small town, tight knit, family like. Today's Sunday school "lesson" was basically "if you're not getting vaccinated, you're not being a good Christian". If you're not getting vaccinated, you are selfish and don't care about others. He talked about evolution, survival of the fittest and how that is unchristian, the church's resistance to science and polls that show Christians are among the highest demographic that say they will not receive the vaccine. He used the analogy of the old joke about the guy who climbs to the top of his house during a biblical flood refusing to be rescued and saying to the canoe, Coast Guard rescue boat and Army helicopter "God will save me", later asking God why he forsake him and let him drown and likened the vaccine to these forms of rescue sent by God. Frankly, I was appalled. During the subsequent discussion, no one offered a contrary opinion. As badly as I wanted to speak my mind, I bit my tongue hard and said nothing during the discussion out of respect for my wife and not wanting her fellow parishioners whispering behind her back that she married a heretic. To be candid, I am upset with church for their message and upset with myself right now for not voicing my thoughts on the subject. I get the sense that the Episcopal church is very structured, almost military like, and nothing comes from the mouths of the clergy in service or Sunday school that hasn't been pre-approved. My question is, is this the opinion of the parish clergy or is the opinion of the Episopal church? Thank you in advance.
Question for Episcopalians
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Last: 2 yr ago by UTExan
Let me get this right. You were appalled that a church would teach that evolution is a real thing caused by survival of the fittest? Or where you appalled that a church would recommend its members get the vaccine out of empathy for others?
It's not really my place to comment on Episcopalians, but I want to understand what was so appalling.
It's not really my place to comment on Episcopalians, but I want to understand what was so appalling.
A quick Google search turned up this:
and this:
https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2021/02/22/presiding-bishops-psa-for-the-covid-19-vaccine/Quote:
In his public service announcement encouraging vaccination, the presiding bishop says, "This vaccine can prevent the COVID-19 virus. It can help you. It can help those who you love. It can help us all. The Bible says you should love your neighbor as yourself. And getting this vaccine, as well as wearing your face mask, and keeping social distanced, and out of crowds, these are some simple and real ways that we can love our neighbor as ourselves. To love our neighbor, and while you're at it to love yourself."
and this:
https://www.episcopalarchives.org/cgi-bin/acts/acts_resolution-complete.pl?resolution=2006-A129Quote:
Resolved, That the 75th General Convention affirm that God is Creator, in accordance with the witness of Scripture and the ancient Creeds of the Church; and be it further
Resolved, That the theory of evolution provides a fruitful and unifying scientific explanation for the emergence of life on earth, that many theological interpretations of origins can readily embrace an evolutionary outlook, and that an acceptance of evolution is entirely compatible with an authentic and living Christian faith; and be it further
Resolved, That Episcopalians strongly encourage state legislatures and state and local boards of education to establish standards for science education based on the best available scientific knowledge as accepted by a consensus of the scientific community; and be it further
Resolved, That Episcopal dioceses and congregations seek the assistance of scientists and science educators in understanding what constitutes reliable scientific knowledge.
Jeez. Just go get vaccinated.
Welcome to progressive Christianity: ignoring sin while pushing a social activist agenda.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Evolution and vaccines are so socialist guys.
Appalled at manipulating people to get vaccinated.Quad Dog said:
Let me get this right. You were appalled that a church would teach that evolution is a real thing caused by survival of the fittest? Or where you appalled that a church would recommend its members get the vaccine out of empathy for others?
It's not really my place to comment on Episcopalians, but I want to understand what was so appalling.
Thanks for the info, btw.
Why? I am healthy and blessed by God with a strong immune system. In my perspective, this is the rescue boat in the joke. If I contract a virus with a survival rate of >99%, I will quarantine myself until my body has killed it and created antibodies. If I become severely ill, I will take proven treatments that have been used for decades to help my recovery. This is the helicopter in the joke. So, why take the risk of a vaccine that performed poorly in animal clinical trials, was rushed into service with very little human clinical trials by manufacturers that have been exempted from litigation?craigernaught said:
Jeez. Just go get vaccinated.
Because it has been tested and works very well in people. Blinded randomized placebo controlled studies show this. There is no good reason to not get a vaccine.
Also as far as I know there are no proven therapies for covid19 other than convalescent plasma. So I don't know what you're talking about "decades" unless it's rest and plenty of fluids.
Also as far as I know there are no proven therapies for covid19 other than convalescent plasma. So I don't know what you're talking about "decades" unless it's rest and plenty of fluids.
To correct myself there's also monoclonal antibody treatments and corticosteroids seem to help. But still.
UTExan said:
Welcome to progressive Christianity: ignoring sin while pushing a social activist agenda.
How is getting a vaccine "progressive" or a "social activist agenda"?
Goodness, the politicization of damn vaccines is unreal.
I don't think the priest, or whoever it was in the OP, was addressing it from a perspective of "take the vaccine to stay healthy". Seemed that it was "take the vaccine to help keep your neighbor healthy". We've had, what, 6 blood clots? Haven't over 100 million already received the vaccine?
I'm not a scientist, but I just got my first dose and I wore/wear a mask, not because I know for sure they work, but because they MIGHT work. If it keeps one person who may be immuno-compromised, or elderly, or high risk, healthy, then great! The risk? Goodness, we're to imitate the self-sacrificial love of Christ.
I'm not a scientist, but I just got my first dose and I wore/wear a mask, not because I know for sure they work, but because they MIGHT work. If it keeps one person who may be immuno-compromised, or elderly, or high risk, healthy, then great! The risk? Goodness, we're to imitate the self-sacrificial love of Christ.
It's wild how much of vaccine and mask resistance comes from ignorance of basic concepts of how covid behaves.
I also don't get the < 99% thing. Most things I've read put it at 98%. Which doesn't sound like much, but at 32 million cases that one percentage point is the difference of 300,000 deaths. Which is a huge number.
Forgive any math errors it's been a long day.
Forgive any math errors it's been a long day.
Car accidents have a survival rate of >99%.
Why should I wear a seatbelt?
Why should I wear a seatbelt?
These kinds of arguments are just bizarre, especially on the R&P board.
Christian scripture and tradition specifically demand that we take special concern for the vulnerable. Just because you are healthy, young, and have a strong immune system does not mean that you are exempt from acting in a responsible way that helps protect other people. The fact that this is very dangerous for the sick, elderly, poor, and immunocompromised means that you should go get it to protect them from you given that these are exactly the types of people our faith calls us to serve and protect.
These "tough guy" anti-vaxxer arguments are terrible and should be shunned by people of faith.
Christian scripture and tradition specifically demand that we take special concern for the vulnerable. Just because you are healthy, young, and have a strong immune system does not mean that you are exempt from acting in a responsible way that helps protect other people. The fact that this is very dangerous for the sick, elderly, poor, and immunocompromised means that you should go get it to protect them from you given that these are exactly the types of people our faith calls us to serve and protect.
These "tough guy" anti-vaxxer arguments are terrible and should be shunned by people of faith.
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
stetson said:
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
Actually it began with you telling us how you were upset that a church said Christians should take a vaccine that could keep their neighbors safe. That concern for others seems pretty consistent with Christian thought. Now, it may not be consistent with our idolatrous partisan and individualistic/self-centered mindset where every damn issue is viewed through political lenses. But it's absolutely consistent with Christian thought.
PacifistAg said:UTExan said:
Welcome to progressive Christianity: ignoring sin while pushing a social activist agenda.
How is getting a vaccine "progressive" or a "social activist agenda"?
Goodness, the politicization of damn vaccines is unreal.
Had mine (Pfizer). But that's mere common sense. The Episcopal Church in America has committed to a political agenda for decades: https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2017/03/09/episcopalians-differ-on-churchs-activism-and-mixing-faith-and-politics/
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
UTExan said:PacifistAg said:UTExan said:
Welcome to progressive Christianity: ignoring sin while pushing a social activist agenda.
How is getting a vaccine "progressive" or a "social activist agenda"?
Goodness, the politicization of damn vaccines is unreal.
Had mine (Pfizer). But that's mere common sense. The Episcopal Church in America has committed to a political agenda for decades: https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/2017/03/09/episcopalians-differ-on-churchs-activism-and-mixing-faith-and-politics/
Yes, we've seen this in a lot of denominations. Episcopalians on one side. Baptists on the other. This is not only a left issue. But my issue is with the insinuation that the vaccine position is inconsistent with Christian teaching on caring for our neighbors.
stetson said:
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
So you're not afraid of Covid because you're so healthy and wonderful. But you are afraid of the vaccine because it might be super duper dangerous even though all the evidence says it isn't. And you're afraid to be a "lab rat" for the vaccine but you're not afraid to be a "lab rat" for the virus.
This is all very smart, very normal, very manly stuff.
I'm not sure if it's always been this way, if its worse now, or if it's just more obvious now, but people refuse to think for themselves to such an extent that we have "facts" that are peculiar to certain political ideologies.
It's a disease. It can kill you, probably won't. It's extremely contagious, at this point you almost certainly know someone who's had it. It's not a conspiracy, every doctor and nurse on the planet isn't in on it. I'm really baffled that because red team leader who is in no way an expert made certain claims that so many people just fell in line no questions asked.
The vaccines are safe and effective. It's better for you, it's better for your neighbor, it's better for your country, the economy, and simply getting back to normal if you get one.
If you can extrapolate your own behavior towards the masses and see that it turns out dramatically worse for everyone if we all behave that way, chances are your behavior needs to be modified.
Red team and blue team should be able to come together to be anti-virus that makes people sick and die. I feel like we can come together to root against that one just like aggies of different faith can come together and hate the longhorns.
It's a disease. It can kill you, probably won't. It's extremely contagious, at this point you almost certainly know someone who's had it. It's not a conspiracy, every doctor and nurse on the planet isn't in on it. I'm really baffled that because red team leader who is in no way an expert made certain claims that so many people just fell in line no questions asked.
The vaccines are safe and effective. It's better for you, it's better for your neighbor, it's better for your country, the economy, and simply getting back to normal if you get one.
If you can extrapolate your own behavior towards the masses and see that it turns out dramatically worse for everyone if we all behave that way, chances are your behavior needs to be modified.
Red team and blue team should be able to come together to be anti-virus that makes people sick and die. I feel like we can come together to root against that one just like aggies of different faith can come together and hate the longhorns.
craigernaught said:stetson said:
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
So you're not afraid of Covid because you're so healthy and wonderful. But you are afraid of the vaccine because it might be super duper dangerous even though all the evidence says it isn't. And you're afraid to be a "lab rat" for the vaccine but you're not afraid to be a "lab rat" for the virus.
This is all very smart, very normal, very manly stuff.
To be fair we have examples of issues with drugs that offer a range of outcomes from terrible consequences to dosing adjustments for sex (not to be confused with the idea of gender). For example thalidomide or ambien. Being apprehensive is not unreasonable especially in light of no long term study of consequences (which seems to have gone by the wayside for a great many things given off label usage of hormones and puberty blockers).
I'm not sure the church is rightly exercising authority by trying to bind consciences actions for vaccinations.
Edit: we also know that humanity mutates a virus or functions to change it as many get less lethal over time. We still don't have a cure for the Spanish flu. Being afraid of something that by far lacks the lethality of many plagues is not sensible, nor is quarantining the healthy for the sake of the sick. This thing has been mishandled start to finish and any goodwill that was there squandered. Let us be equitable with our expectations of people who have no reason to trust governments that have manipulated the situation, press that mislead, and churches that forsake being the church in service of 'protection' or 'saving lives'.
can you give some examples of vaccines that cause problems on the same level as thalidomide or even ambien? seems like a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.AGC said:craigernaught said:stetson said:
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
So you're not afraid of Covid because you're so healthy and wonderful. But you are afraid of the vaccine because it might be super duper dangerous even though all the evidence says it isn't. And you're afraid to be a "lab rat" for the vaccine but you're not afraid to be a "lab rat" for the virus.
This is all very smart, very normal, very manly stuff.
To be fair we have examples of issues with drugs that offer a range of outcomes from terrible consequences to dosing adjustments for sex (not to be confused with the idea of gender). For example thalidomide or ambien. Being apprehensive is not unreasonable especially in light of no long term study of consequences (which seems to have gone by the wayside for a great many things given off label usage of hormones and puberty blockers).
I'm not sure the church is rightly exercising authority by trying to bind consciences actions for vaccinations.
Edit: we also know that humanity mutates a virus or functions to change it as many get less lethal over time. We still don't have a cure for the Spanish flu. Being afraid of something that by far lacks the lethality of many plagues is not sensible, nor is quarantining the healthy for the sake of the sick. This thing has been mishandled start to finish and any goodwill that was there squandered. Let us be equitable with our expectations of people who have no reason to trust governments that have manipulated the situation, press that mislead, and churches that forsake being the church in service of 'protection' or 'saving lives'.
Why are 1 in 5 health care providers refusing to get vaccinated if it's a proven and effective way to stop the virus?
Why are the vaccinations still "experimental" if they have been proven, without a doubt, to be effective with no side affects or other issues?
Why are the vaccinations still "experimental" if they have been proven, without a doubt, to be effective with no side affects or other issues?
schmendeler said:
It's wild how much of vaccine and mask resistance comes from ignorance of basic concepts of how covid behaves.
These two should not be part of the same sentence.
The vaccines works. The science says they work and we see those effects in real life.
Masks, especially, as worn by 99.9% of the population do not work. The science has never supported that they work, whether it be with flu or others.
This is the great failure of government.
They pushed the masks as an FU to Trump and completely bungled the vaccine messaging.
The message "should have been" to get the vaccine and go back to your life, sans mask and social distancing. Instead we have fauci saying, against the actual data, that you should still take full precautions.
No wonder people are hesitant about everything.
FYI quarantines have always been for the healthy. The idea came from isolating and observing people for forty days to ensure they're not sick before allowing them to enter a port or city. This is one of those bad talking points.
Getting vaccinated doesn't mean you're afraid of the virus.
I hate this entire conversation and the anti-intellectualism it represents.
To me the worst thing about this politicization is the ridiculous idea that opposing narratives should be considered simply because they exist, not on their merits. Simply because an opinion exists doesn't make it a reasonable alternative. This fact seems to escape people these days. Ironically I think President Trump's identification and weaponization of anti-establishment and anti-intellectual sentiment blew up in his face with the pandemic, and resulted directly in his loss of the election.
Getting vaccinated doesn't mean you're afraid of the virus.
I hate this entire conversation and the anti-intellectualism it represents.
To me the worst thing about this politicization is the ridiculous idea that opposing narratives should be considered simply because they exist, not on their merits. Simply because an opinion exists doesn't make it a reasonable alternative. This fact seems to escape people these days. Ironically I think President Trump's identification and weaponization of anti-establishment and anti-intellectual sentiment blew up in his face with the pandemic, and resulted directly in his loss of the election.
they do work. except that masks "working" doesn't mean that they are a magical virus shield. it means that they slow transmission. and the real world evidence backs that up.AgLiving06 said:schmendeler said:
It's wild how much of vaccine and mask resistance comes from ignorance of basic concepts of how covid behaves.
These two should not be part of the same sentence.
The vaccines works. The science says they work and we see those effects in real life.
Masks, especially as worn by 99.9% of the population do not work. The science has never supported that they work, whether it be with flu or others.
This is the great failure of government.
They pushed the masks as an FU to Trump and completely bungled the vaccine messaging.
The message "should have been" to get the vaccine and go back to your life, sans mask and social distancing. Instead we have fauci saying, against the actual data, that you should still take full precautions.
No wonder people are hesitant about everything.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536
health care provider is a very wide description. i imagine that includes nurses or paramedics? wouldn't surprise me a bit if a large contingency of nurses or paramedics refuse to take it based on my previous exposure to them. they are awesome at what they do, but they often hold some weird opinions about stuff.RangerAg87 said:
Why are 1 in 5 health care providers refusing to get vaccinated if it's a proven and effective way to stop the virus?
Why are the vaccinations still "experimental" if they have been proven, without a doubt, to be effective with no side affects or other issues?
not to say that physicians are immune to quacky opinions. see the lady out of houston that was linked up with trump briefly.
The table is laughable.
It relies on anecdotal evidence at best.
Lets take self reported mask wearing which represents 36% of the "interventions." Wanna bet those who are willing to self report are taking far more precautions than just wearing a mask? So how are you going to isolate for the impacts of a mask?
I also notice they didn't bother to put California on the chart? Who had enforced mandatory mask mandates, yet got absolutely wrecked this winter.
And then there's this sentence from the article:
They also have to set out to disprove the Denmark study which did not show any tangible benefit of masks
So no, this article does nothing to further "science."
Edit to add: This is why the focus should have been on "get the vaccine and go back to your life." Instead, it's get the vaccine and stay in hiding.
It relies on anecdotal evidence at best.
Lets take self reported mask wearing which represents 36% of the "interventions." Wanna bet those who are willing to self report are taking far more precautions than just wearing a mask? So how are you going to isolate for the impacts of a mask?
I also notice they didn't bother to put California on the chart? Who had enforced mandatory mask mandates, yet got absolutely wrecked this winter.
And then there's this sentence from the article:
Quote:
These studies did not distinguish the types of masks (cloth, surgical, or N95) used in the community. This association is strengthened because, in many cases, other mitigation strategies (eg, school and workplace closures, recommendations for social distancing, hand hygiene) had already been deployed before enactment of mask wearing policies, after which the reductions were observed.
They also have to set out to disprove the Denmark study which did not show any tangible benefit of masks
So no, this article does nothing to further "science."
Edit to add: This is why the focus should have been on "get the vaccine and go back to your life." Instead, it's get the vaccine and stay in hiding.
Zobel said:
FYI quarantines have always been for the healthy. The idea came from isolating and observing people for forty days to ensure they're not sick before allowing them to enter a port or city. This is one of those bad talking points.
Getting vaccinated doesn't mean you're afraid of the virus.
I hate this entire conversation and the anti-intellectualism it represents.
To me the worst thing about this politicization is the ridiculous idea that opposing narratives should be considered simply because they exist, not on their merits. Simply because an opinion exists doesn't make it a reasonable alternative. This fact seems to escape people these days. Ironically I think President Trump's identification and weaponization of anti-establishment and anti-intellectual sentiment blew up in his face with the pandemic, and resulted directly in his loss of the election.
Yes from the Italian word used during the Black Plague, no? I meant lockdowns apologies for the confusion.
It's not anti-intellectual to discuss the virus or vaccines, given how atypical both have been handled relative to recent history, say before February of last year.
schmendeler said:can you give some examples of vaccines that cause problems on the same level as thalidomide or even ambien? seems like a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.AGC said:craigernaught said:stetson said:
It began as a simple question. I'll leave you lab rats to your vaccine...
So you're not afraid of Covid because you're so healthy and wonderful. But you are afraid of the vaccine because it might be super duper dangerous even though all the evidence says it isn't. And you're afraid to be a "lab rat" for the vaccine but you're not afraid to be a "lab rat" for the virus.
This is all very smart, very normal, very manly stuff.
To be fair we have examples of issues with drugs that offer a range of outcomes from terrible consequences to dosing adjustments for sex (not to be confused with the idea of gender). For example thalidomide or ambien. Being apprehensive is not unreasonable especially in light of no long term study of consequences (which seems to have gone by the wayside for a great many things given off label usage of hormones and puberty blockers).
I'm not sure the church is rightly exercising authority by trying to bind consciences actions for vaccinations.
Edit: we also know that humanity mutates a virus or functions to change it as many get less lethal over time. We still don't have a cure for the Spanish flu. Being afraid of something that by far lacks the lethality of many plagues is not sensible, nor is quarantining the healthy for the sake of the sick. This thing has been mishandled start to finish and any goodwill that was there squandered. Let us be equitable with our expectations of people who have no reason to trust governments that have manipulated the situation, press that mislead, and churches that forsake being the church in service of 'protection' or 'saving lives'.
Hmm, it's almost like the FDA has a process for approving them that has been followed because of those horrible side effects and prevented them from happening commonly as new drugs come to market. Yet it's been thrown out the window for this one and we can already conclude it's completely safe with no ill side effects after a few months when some may manifest years down the road.
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