This is a spin off post from another thread that I sidetracked with concerns about volunteering to lead programming at church.

The church I go to, and lead a bible study for, currently is suffering from turmoil at the top leadership ranks. To put it kindly, the pastor stepped down for personal reasons, and then the remaining church leadership bungled the whole election year. There's been a lot of leadership deciding to move on to different churches and same is being seen within the flock.

I say all this context to say this. A few weeks ago our church launched another women's event with no intention of launching a men's event as well. Men's programming is nonexistent and the men of my bible study are catching on.

They are wanting to suggest/potentially lead a mens event, but there is definitely an air of political apprehension.

What say you R&P board? Any recommendations/insights/stories about trying to step us as a voluntary leader in any capacity? Any ideas or comments for mens programming in general? This isn't a big, big church, but its not small either. To get something off the ground it would need some backing from leadership and people willing to take any COVID or political heat.

Thanks for all the recommendations dermdoc.

Imho, the key is a good leadership and a core group of like minded Christian men. I believe there needs to be weekly or regular fellowship with that core group whether via a Bible study, boy's night out doing dinner, cards, whatever.
The group brings accountability.
After that bond is formed then anything is possible, just figure out what charity or church group you want to help.

And one last thing and I will shut up.

When you get a group that likes to be around each other, it becomes fun and not an obligation. We had "valet" walker parking at our nursing home services and friendly competition in just about everything we did.

Display your hope and joy for others to see.

And for Pete's sake, do not make it a heavy(or even light) theological deal. It is all about fun and fellowship while serving. Like I believe Christians are supposed to be.

Frok said:

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Hire Derm to come in and organize your men's ministry

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So I was supposed to get paid for doing that?

And trust me I was. Not with money but with joy.

Are the leaders leaving because of their own unrighteous behavior coming to light or are they leaving due to the unrighteous behavior of those staying? That would be key to me.

I would concentrate on personal discipleship groups first with emphasize on grace, conversion to Christianity, public declaration of faith with testimony in group and then offer service as well. My church does a bagel Tuesday at a local school where kids, mostly non-citizen kids with limited English skills, get juice, bagels, school supplies and food to take home.

dermdoc said:

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Imho, the key is a good leadership and a core group of like minded Christian men. I believe there needs to be weekly or regular fellowship with that core group whether via a Bible study, boy's night out doing dinner, cards, whatever.
The group brings accountability.
After that bond is formed then anything is possible, just figure out what charity or church group you want to help.

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As someone who just left a 1000+ person church on Sunday I think one element is missing: shepherding of the leaders. I knew multiple deacons and people who would always show up and serve and chair these events but didn't have support from the church staff. It's one of the basic needs I felt was missing. Pastoral ministry is not simply teaching but shepherding and if you want deacons and other leaders to step up I think they need more than someone delegating and arranging funding. Pastors should know their flock.

Never been in an experience like that so have nothing to offer.

UTExan said:

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I would concentrate on personal discipleship groups first with emphasize on grace, conversion to Christianity, public declaration of faith with testimony in group and then offer service as well. My church does a bagel Tuesday at a local school where kids, mostly non-citizen kids with limited English skills, get juice, bagels, school supplies and food to take home.

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IMHO, I would not want to be part of that group. Just fellowship and have fun. Church and theology will take care of itself. Trust the Holy Spirit and not ourselves.

Win At Life said:

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Are the leaders leaving because of their own unrighteous behavior coming to light or are they leaving due to the unrighteous behavior of those staying? That would be key to me.

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I don't think either actually. There wasn't infidelity or theft to divide the church over. I think the pastor suffered a fate that many pastors do: being overworked and not poured into enough. As the church grew, so did the amount of things that required his time. I think he eventually had too many people come up and demand his time personally and his personal time too. It's a common problem especially in Protestant churches where the pastor can be seen as the center of the church and has to have their hand in everything.

I don't begrudge the pastor, but there have been real negative outcomes as we humans seek infallibility in other human leaders. 2020 was a rough year that saw a lot of people turn to church in times of uncertainty and fear during covid. My church just happened to be dealing with a lack of strong leadership at just the wrong time and they floundered on messaging. It caused a cascade of problems.

One of those things is lack of men specific programming. So this thread is great with ideas that I appreciate.

I had asked you to start this thread because I had some comments for you, but I think your details suggest there's bigger problem at your church.

I think there are some reasonable investment questions that need to be answered - I am not sure the church will even survive, the way you've described it.

But, if it will and you're committed to investing there, then AGC's words echo where I was going. Personally, I think church staff is critical because these things breakdown when the staff starts to have a different vision than the volunteers. I have seen strong men's events be shut down and squashed because of staff...and because of volunteer leaders who selfishly run counter to what the church staff wants to do. it will depend a lot of your influence level and the culture of your church in regards to events run by staff. Some congregations don't attend events if staff isn't running and some do.

diehard03 said:

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I had asked you to start this thread because I had some comments for you, but I think your details suggest there's bigger problem at your church.

I think there are some reasonable investment questions that need to be answered - I am not sure the church will even survive, the way you've described it.

But, if it will and you're committed to investing there, then AGC's words echo where I was going. Personally, I think church staff is critical because these things breakdown when the staff starts to have a different vision than the volunteers. I have seen strong men's events be shut down and squashed because of staff...and because of volunteer leaders who selfishly run counter to what the church staff wants to do. it will depend a lot of your influence level and the culture of your church in regards to events run by staff. Some congregations don't attend events if staff isn't running and some do.

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Diehard, I'd still appreciate your comments even if they are in a vacuum and don't apply directly.

This church will survive, and probably grow in 2021 but people who have been around for a long time are beginning to see it as an end of an era. And now the observant within the church body are picking up that as leadership looks around, so is the church body. This church does a lot of great things, but people were hurt with their messaging when they tried to stumble into political commentary, especially within these past 6 months. So the writing is on the wall how church leadership wants to align themselves and so there's a quiet transition as people moved onto churches have signaled their political leanings are accepted there. I don't like the idea of people church hopping because of political opinion (one way or the other), but I also didn't appreciate the political one sided points made on Sunday mornings. I also think that church leadership just sees membership as temporarily down due to COVID. Its hard for them to pick out who has left for good versus who is staying away because of COVID. It'll be another year before someone who can't see what is going on now to fully see it after its passed - if they even want to confront that within their leadership ranks.

I mention all of this context not to knock down this church and catastrophize it, but things that would have been easy to bring up to leadership could potentially face new hurdles. Every organization is facing a backlash against easing up on COVID restrictions as well, usually from the same groups that drove isolating, political messaging on Sunday mornings. So I appreciate any and all comments about how to approach this and lead.

I'm talking with a church leader, who is a good friend, today to run y'alls recommendations by. That conversation will tell me a lot about what is to be expected in the future from the newly minted top leadership.

I think diehard03's take is really good. As a pastor, it's difficult to navigate every ministry idea that comes along for a few main reasons. One is that resources are finite. Two is an extension of One in that people sometimes are passionate to get something started and then it falls to the staff to keep it going. Which is draining after a while.

But third, many times church members get really passionate about a ministry or a project that they think is important and everyone else should be as passionate about as they are. Often though, it doesn't match the mission/vision that leadership has developed.

So in agreement with diehard's advice, I think whatever you do should be in alignment with your church's current mission/vision without demanding resources (time, money, etc) from church leadership. Communication of what you're doing is crucial though because transition times produce power vacuums. Leadership that remains can start to get suspicious and see enemies everywhere if they think people are just going off on their own.

Best case scenario is that they can hold it up as an encouraging positive in the life of your church while it's in turmoil. Seeing people discipled, baptized, growing in their faith through a men's ministry could actually breathe some life and positivity into a church in leadership transition.

Last thing is thank you for sticking with a church that is struggling. It's easy to jump ship and write it off as God's will without actually seeking the Lord.

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So I appreciate any and all comments about how to approach this and lead.

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Man, the political thing is really tough in a church setting because many hold the view one cannot be a Christian and believe X about a particular subject...and to be clear, I mean they make it a salvation issue.

i will say that I am not entirely sure what you mean, but just in a general sense on the political things I've noticed.

My comments I intended to make to you is basically one of caution and leaning on your calling. What I mean is that always have a high chance of running into church staff that don't agree with what you're doing or are simply tasked by leadership to run what you're running. This happens all the time. Leaning on your calling means that everything is subject to that. That means that if church staff has to run it, and they do it better than you...then you go with that and faithfully support it. If they no interest in supporting what you're doing, and will leave you alone, then go with that. if they want you to stop and you feel God is leading you here, then you need to find an arena that allows you do it (another church, parachurch ministry, etc) or work with leadership with how to frame it so they can let you do it.

There's a lot of wisdom in anaag's post. Church staff are humans with feelings and stress just like you. Never attribute malice where incompetence OR leadership commands to the contrary will suffice.

Finally, I'd also say that always consider a vocation change to ministry. Don't make the mistake of demanding that it looks a certain way as far as your involvement goes.

I am very fortunate to have never been involved in church dynamics like you describe. I can not remember a time that the pastor and staff were not all behind whatever we as deacons or a group of men, women, or both wanted to do.

And they did not care who was in charge of it. Lots of humility.

How'd the meeting go?

Happy Easter, dermdoc. I know some think I'm a week late, but those of us who attend churches with liturgical seasons consider Easter a 50-day season running from Easter Sunday to Pentacost rather than a single day.

anaag75 said:

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How'd the meeting go?

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There was some good and some not so good. As a reminder this meeting was with a friend in leadership, so it wasn't a formal recommendation put together by me just an idea pitching conversation to see what the church is willing to support. The good was the church probably had grumbles from other people about the same problem and there was an immediate announcement for the return of men's breakfast prayer at the church once a month. Where it gets a little more hairy is that the church isn't really interested in formally hosting a men's event that is "stereotypically men's" and that church wide events need to always be focused on the central message of Jesus. So no church wide golf tournament, fishing, skeet shooting, etc. Leadership friend thinks those are exclusionary because they endorse a 'certain type of man.' Men's groups need to be about discipleship first. Fine, but this in stark contrast to the leeway women's programs basically do gal pal chit chat meet ups with the full support of the church. Didn't bring that up, because this wasn't an argumentative conversation.

The best recommendation was to start with the community group, grow to a regional informal event with us leading organically and then once we reach critical mass to approach the church about a service event. That's what our group is interested in anyway. Getting to know our surrounding community groups deeper, doing small service projects and informal meet ups like breakfasts and weekend grilling.

To me the whole conversation telegraphed that leadership won't touch it unless it's already apparent there's a strong support for it.

It turns out that one of the smaller, satellite campuses has a really strong men's community for prayer and service and it happened organically. So leadership is definitely interested in seeing someone replicate that on a larger scale at the main campus. But it's given them a license to not seek out making church wide events. I'm going to talk to those other guys later this week.

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Where it gets a little more hairy is that the church isn't really interested in formally hosting a men's event that is "stereotypically men's" and that church wide events need to always be focused on the central message of Jesus. So no church wide golf tournament, fishing, skeet shooting, etc. Leadership friend thinks those are exclusionary because they endorse a 'certain type of man.' Men's groups need to be about discipleship first. Fine

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Well, your friend is not wrong in his assessment of those things are exclusionary. Sometimes men's events are too "caveman" and get his trepidation on that subject. That said, it doesn't make those events bad...you may, depending on your congregation, have to have some other events that less that as well.

I do think there's a ministry misalignment here too though. A ministry whos focus is discipleship will look A LOT different than one's whos focus is fellowship.

I agree with the later assessment you made about starting organically - you just need to tuck back into your mind that church staff could, when it reaches their idea of "critical mass" to try and take it over. That's probably putting the cart before the horse...but I would make a mental note to always having your "purpose for existing" know by you and your co-leaders. If you build a "fellowship, fun, with a light touch of teaching/prayer/etc", and they try and turn it into "discipleship", your ministry is going to implode.

LonghornDub said:

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Happy Easter, dermdoc. I know some think I'm a week late, but those of us who attend churches with liturgical seasons consider Easter a 50-day season running from Easter Sunday to Pentacost rather than a single day.

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He is risen!

And saw Harry Green at Aggie baseball two weeks ago. Had a great visit even though he is blind now.

I think "fellowship and fun" lead to discipleship. Or at least what I consider discipleship like service projects, etc. I would ask the pastoral staff exactly what they mean by discipleship.

Sounds like they are operating from the fear of losing control.

Another thing to think about besides the "caveman" aspect of those activities is the cost and time of them. A lot of those activities will exclude many people because they don't have a free Saturday or enough spare cash to do them.
I'd rather spend my weekends with my family, and I'm cheap.

Quad Dog said:

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Another thing to think about besides the "caveman" aspect of those activities is the cost and time of them. A lot of those activities will exclude many people because they don't have a free Saturday or enough spare cash to do them.
I'd rather spend my weekends with my family, and I'm cheap.

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And Imho that's great. The beauty of an organic grown group is that you have input. But the key is establishing that bond.

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I think "fellowship and fun" lead to discipleship. Or at least what I consider discipleship like service projects, etc. I would ask the pastoral staff exactly what they mean by discipleship.

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Were probably in agreement, but I will clarify:

Do I think that there are opportunities for men to move into discipleship relationships out of "fellowship and fun" that normally wouldn't be present otherwise? Yes.

Do I think that "fellowship and fun" defaults into discipleship if not intentional? No, I do not.

it's more of a "practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect" sort of thing, imo.

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Sounds like they are operating from the fear of losing control.

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Yeah, this is a human thing. So long as pastoral staff get angry emails and pressure from the elder board to "do more", they will always operate out of fear of losing control.

What do you mean when you talk about discipleship? Thanks.

And to clarify, what I have noted is that discipleship grows out of groups.

And do y'all have small groups?

We do, I host/lead one of the small groups. I believe I've caused some confusion with misusing some terminology earlier. From my church patronage growing up the following words were interchangeable: Bible study = small group = community group. They were all used to describe weekly gatherings of believers for catching up, small bible/teaching out of a lesson prepared by the church and prayer.

So I still use them interchangeably (without thinking) when in reality there are differences.

And I am really out of the mainstream when golf and fishing tournaments are consider "caveman" and exclusive.
We used to monetarily subsidize folks who could not afford it.

How is golf, fishing, and shooting sports not exclusive? They all imply a certain level of skill, knowledge, and experience that requires time and money to acquire. They also imply equipment that can be expensive. People without that much money and experience will be left out.

How many men are going to go fishing, shooting, or golfing if they don't know how, especially with a group of men they barely know?

Take me for example, I've never really fished in my life, so I wouldn't want to be embarrassed to show that to a group of men I don't know. Also, I can afford all these things. But I'd rather spend half a Saturday and $100-200 doing something I enjoy with people I already know.

If your goal is to include as many men as possible, than choose something that takes 1-2 hours and does something productive for the community. I'd be way more likely to participate in a service project with strangers than golf with them. But if your goal is to make a smaller group that might be closer knit, then some of the other options might be your thing.

EDIT to add: "caveman" may not be the best term to use, but they are all stereotypically male.

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What do you mean when you talk about discipleship? Thanks.

And to clarify, what I have noted is that discipleship grows out of groups.

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In this context, it's actions/activities/relationships/inward decisions that lead one into increasing submission to Christ, ie to pick up one's cross and carry it.

Again, I don't think we are that opposed...I do think there's an intentionality that has to occur to move from "fellowship" to "discipleship". They are different things that Christians need. I think a church that wants to move into discipleship fears creating events that just end in fellowship, rather than taking that next step.

I think with these groups you can have a primary focus of outreach, fellowship, or discipleship. I agree that if you try to focus on all of them at once, then you won't do any of them well. However, if you do a really go job in one aspect, the other two naturally follow to a lesser degree. So a regular softball game for fellowship may grow into a softball league outreach that pulls on non-members. Weekly bible study for discipleship may grow into an afternoon with snack and games in addition and add fellowship.