Fri-Sunday the wrong time frame for Easter

3,381 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Jabin
FTAggies
How long do you want to ignore this user?
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/jesus-christ-the-real-story/when-was-jesus-christ-crucified-and-resurrected

I was just curious the history and rationale behind this tradition as this is the first objection I've seen
Gig'em
aggiedad20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
This argument has been around for decades if not longer. We don't need bunnies, baskets or chocolate to have faith in the resurrection. Christ raised from the dead as He promised and the Lord's church gathers every Sunday to worship and memorialize His death burial and resurrection.

"Easter" is a non-biblical distraction. Celebrate it culturally if you like, but not religiously.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Can't speak from the traditional side when it comes to Good Friday, but I will say that the textual evidence is not a clear as they would make it. "Days and nights" was a type of Hebrew slang that doesn't have to refer to a full day and a full night of 24 hours. So 3 "days and nights" doesn't have to mean a full 72 hours. Friday afternoon, Saturday all day, and Sunday morning would be parts of 3 days and would technically fit the common usage of the word.

The most technical reading would put the cruficixion on Thursday afternoon with Jesus being buried right before sunset and being resurrected just before dawn on Sunday. Thursday, Friday, Saturday days with the same nights, but that's still not 72 hours. So it's not 3 full days and nights. You could push back to Wednesday and get 72 hours, but then you have Christ rising Saturday night. Since Jewish days start at sunset, it's still technically a 1st day of the week resurrection, but that's still not the tradition
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's called Passover in almost every other language and is biblical in both Testaments. And if there's one day in the Christian calender worth celebrating it's the Resurrection
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
You celebrate Passover?
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Yes
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
FTAggies said:

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/jesus-christ-the-real-story/when-was-jesus-christ-crucified-and-resurrected

I was just curious the history and rationale behind this tradition as this is the first objection I've seen

Yep, this is pretty much spot on. Some scholars, taking note of the two sabbaths, have proposed a Thursday crucifixion. However, the preparing of spices is best paired with a non-sabbath day between the two sabbaths and a Wednesday crucifixion. The one thing that is beyond any reasonable reading of the text is a Friday crucifixion.

I think the writer probably has strained a bit to put the date in AD 31, because there are some calendar variations that occurred throughout history. I would say that AD 31 is a big maybe. However, if we backtrack to the time of Jesus' birth, taking note of copyist's errors that that placed it no later than 4 BC, we now know that Jesus was likely born in 2 BC, in the 7th month of the year . If we then flip the calendar to Jan1 1st, AD 1, Jesus would have been about 21 months old. Fast forward 28 years to late 27/early 28 AD, and Jesus was in his 30th year, the time when Levites entered the priestly service. For Jesus, being both priest and king, he was baptized and began his 3+ year earthly ministry.

...Which takes us to early AD 31, the month of Nisan, and the crucifixion. 31 AD fits very well with the timeline.

Now, in addition to the link provided, I will add a few things. If you look in Matthew 28, the chapter in your bible says "after the Sabbath." However, in the original language, it says "after the sabbaths." In order to fit the Good Friday narrative, translators capriciously changed the plural to the singular. There were 2 sabbaths! Whether you place them on Thursday-Friday or Wednesday-Friday is up for some debate, but the best evidence is for a Wednesday Passover.

In addition, read Luke 24:13 - 21. The men on the road to Emmaus. Read plainly, the text implies clearly a Thursday crucifixion ("this happened 3 days ago") or a Wed. crucifixion ("he has been dead for 3 days"). Finally, consider the tradition of the soul departing the body on the 4th day. By Sunday, Jesus, like Lazarus, was not only dead, but "good and dead."

This whole blatant Good Friday error continues to baffle me. Several years ago I went to a lecture by Dr. Peter Williams, entitled "Some things that ought to be better known about the resurrection." You can look it up. Dr. Williams went through the evidence about Tacitus, Pliny, Josephus, and laid out a very strong case. Then, in the same lecture, he began to place dates around the resurrection, and remarkably began, without evidence, that the crucifixion occurred on Friday! I couldn't believe that such a great scholar could just abandon scholarship so suddenly. The dude is a world-renowned scholar in classical languages, yet he didn't know the difference between singular and plural. It just shows you how deeply ingrained this error is.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I have also read that the lambs for Passover were selected 4 days beforehand (seems like a "kosher" sabbath activity, but I don't know). Fascinating, because we don't have to insert extra days in the Passion Week narrative. Jesus was teaching in temple at the exact time the Passover lambs were being selected, a Lamb without blemish, with zeal for his Father's house. And, at the 9th hour on Wednesday (3 p.m.), he surrendered his spirit at the exact time the lambs were being slaughtered.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
94chem said:

I have also read that the lambs for Passover were selected 4 days beforehand (seems like a "kosher" sabbath activity, but I don't know). Fascinating, because we don't have to insert extra days in the Passion Week narrative. Jesus was teaching in temple at the exact time the Passover lambs were being selected, a Lamb without blemish, with zeal for his Father's house. And, at the 9th hour on Wednesday (3 p.m.), he surrendered his spirit at the exact time the lambs were being slaughtered.
The lambs were selected on the 10th of the new moon and Passover was on the 14th, so that's the 4 days.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12&version=NASB

The Passover Lamb

12 Now the Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of [a]Egypt, 2 "This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are, each one, to take a [b]lamb for themselves, according to the fathers' households, a [c]lamb for [d]each household. 4 Now if the household is too small for a [e]lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the [f]number of persons in them; in proportion to [g]what each one should eat, you are to [h]divide the lamb. 5 Your [i]lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 [j]You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to slaughter it [k]at twilight.
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
FTAggies said:

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/jesus-christ-the-real-story/when-was-jesus-christ-crucified-and-resurrected

I was just curious the history and rationale behind this tradition as this is the first objection I've seen

The problem with this explanation is that it ignores the error of the Pharisees regarding keeping Passover/Matzot that has become common Rabbinic Judaism to this day. The following video is the only place I can find that fully addresses all the issues around the timing of Yeshua's last week.

https://battzion.org/videos/shabbat-services/

In the list of videos, hit "Next" to get to page 2. Then open the first one on page two "Shabbat Service 20210123 5781 Parashat BO" and watch between 1:10 and 2:10.
Serotonin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
What am I missing in Mark 15 which describes the details of the day of crucifixion?
Quote:

It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath).j So as evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council,k who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God,l went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45 When he learned from the centurionm that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
https://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Mk15.1

The Didache (1st century) describes the fast days of Wednesday and Friday for Christians (day of betrayal and day of crucifixion).

Egeria's diary (late 300s) also describes the Wednesday and Friday observances as well as Good Friday service before Pascha (Easter).
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Serotonin said:

What am I missing in Mark 15 which describes the details of the day of crucifixion?
Quote:

It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath).j So as evening approached, 43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council,k who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God,l went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45 When he learned from the centurionm that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.
https://biblia.com/books/niv2011/Mk15.1

The Didache (1st century) describes the fast days of Wednesday and Friday for Christians (day of betrayal and day of crucifixion).

Egeria's diary (late 300s) also describes the Wednesday and Friday observances as well as Good Friday service before Pascha (Easter).
If you are assuming the Sabbath in Mark 15 is a Saturday Sabbath and not the High Sabbath for the first day of unleavened bread, then you are missing Leviticus 23:7 and John 19:31. Also, if you are assuming the High Sabbath required by Leviticus 23:7 is being correctly declared by the Pharisees on the 15th of Nisan, then you are missing Luke 22:15. As for the Didache, it neither describes Wednesday as the betrayal, nor Friday as the crucifixion. I suggest you watch the video I posted.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Win At Life said:

94chem said:

I have also read that the lambs for Passover were selected 4 days beforehand (seems like a "kosher" sabbath activity, but I don't know). Fascinating, because we don't have to insert extra days in the Passion Week narrative. Jesus was teaching in temple at the exact time the Passover lambs were being selected, a Lamb without blemish, with zeal for his Father's house. And, at the 9th hour on Wednesday (3 p.m.), he surrendered his spirit at the exact time the lambs were being slaughtered.
The lambs were selected on the 10th of the new moon and Passover was on the 14th, so that's the 4 days.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12&version=NASB

The Passover Lamb

12 Now the Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of [a]Egypt, 2 "This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are, each one, to take a [b]lamb for themselves, according to the fathers' households, a [c]lamb for [d]each household. 4 Now if the household is too small for a [e]lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the [f]number of persons in them; in proportion to [g]what each one should eat, you are to [h]divide the lamb. 5 Your [i]lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 [j]You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to slaughter it [k]at twilight.

Just guessing here, but that seems like a lot of lambs. When the Law said "at twilight," it may well have meant "get it done by twilight."

Also, Since Christ died about 3 hours before the beginning of Passover, about the only thing that could be done was done by Joseph - essentially grab the body and put it in a tomb until the sabbath was past. It's kind of comical the way theologians have tried to cram the preparation of spices into that 3 hour period. Seriously? They all traipsed back out to Bethany or wherever and prepared spices before 6 p.m.? If you just read the text, you can avoid a lot of gymnastics.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
swimmerbabe11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
aggiedad20 said:

This argument has been around for decades if not longer. We don't need bunnies, baskets or chocolate to have faith in the resurrection. Christ raised from the dead as He promised and the Lord's church gathers every Sunday to worship and memorialize His death burial and resurrection.

"Easter" is a non-biblical distraction. Celebrate it culturally if you like, but not religiously.


Distraction from what?

Wouldn't celebrating it culturally with bunnies and baskets, but not talking about the resurrection and grace of God be a distraction?
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
94chem said:

Win At Life said:

94chem said:

I have also read that the lambs for Passover were selected 4 days beforehand (seems like a "kosher" sabbath activity, but I don't know). Fascinating, because we don't have to insert extra days in the Passion Week narrative. Jesus was teaching in temple at the exact time the Passover lambs were being selected, a Lamb without blemish, with zeal for his Father's house. And, at the 9th hour on Wednesday (3 p.m.), he surrendered his spirit at the exact time the lambs were being slaughtered.
The lambs were selected on the 10th of the new moon and Passover was on the 14th, so that's the 4 days.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12&version=NASB

The Passover Lamb

12 Now the Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of [a]Egypt, 2 "This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are, each one, to take a [b]lamb for themselves, according to the fathers' households, a [c]lamb for [d]each household. 4 Now if the household is too small for a [e]lamb, then he and his neighbor nearest to his house are to take one according to the [f]number of persons in them; in proportion to [g]what each one should eat, you are to [h]divide the lamb. 5 Your [i]lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 [j]You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to slaughter it [k]at twilight.

Just guessing here, but that seems like a lot of lambs. When the Law said "at twilight," it may well have meant "get it done by twilight."

Also, Since Christ died about 3 hours before the beginning of Passover, about the only thing that could be done was done by Joseph - essentially grab the body and put it in a tomb until the sabbath was past. It's kind of comical the way theologians have tried to cram the preparation of spices into that 3 hour period. Seriously? They all traipsed back out to Bethany or wherever and prepared spices before 6 p.m.? If you just read the text, you can avoid a lot of gymnastics.
Christ didn't die about 3 hours before Passover. The correct time for Passover was the evening before.

Luke 22:15 And He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;

Christ died about 3 hours before the Pharisees held their Passover on the day after scripture tells them to. It doesn't require a lot of gymnastics to make it work, but it is confusing because there's so much bad information out there about how to keep the Passover going back to before the time of Yeshua. It's as if an evil spirit has gone out into the world to deceive mankind from the truth of God's Word. This is all explained further in that video.
Serotonin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Thanks for the quick reply, here's the direct link to 1:10 on youtube:
Martin Q. Blank
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ramblin_ag02 said:

Yes
Are you a Jew or a Win At Life type of Christian?
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Yes
Are you a Jew or a Win At Life type of Christian?


Given those options: a Win At Life type of Christian
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Yes
Are you a Jew or a Win At Life type of Christian?
All who are saved and His children have been adopted as sons and daughters into Yeshua's family: a Jew, born of a Jewish mother, a Jewish father and circumcised on the eight day.

Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

However, like many people don't discover they have been adopted until much later in life, you may not have understood your adoption into Yeshua's Jewishness until now. But, just because you didn't know you had been adopted all along, doesn't mean that you were not. You were.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I mostly agree. The only difference for me is that I observe Passover (and other parts of Torah) because they are Godly. The fact they were first given to Israel and are now followed only by Jews is irrelevant. If I completely believed that God commanded a remote tribe in Indonesia to paint their fingernails, then I'd be getting a manicure tomorrow. I want to make my Father happy, and I know that at least at one point this behavior made Him happy.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
94chem
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quote:

It's as if an evil spirit has gone out into the world to deceive mankind from the truth of God's Word.


While I agree with this statement, and I think you can see it affirmed in places like II Peter, Jude, and Romans 1, I don't think it should take an hour-long video to explain what day on which to eat.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
Frok
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Making sure I understand the theory:

Wednesday - Crucifixion - Jesus body put in tomb
Thursday - High Day Passover
Friday - This is the day I'm not understanding. What happened on Friday?
Saturday - Passover
Sunday - Resurrection
swimmerbabe11
How long do you want to ignore this user?
step one: steal socks
step two: ???
step three: ????
Step four: profit!
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Frok said:

Making sure I understand the theory:

Wednesday - Crucifixion - Jesus body put in tomb
Thursday - High Day Passover
Friday - This is the day I'm not understanding. What happened on Friday?
Saturday - Passover
Sunday - Resurrection


Saturday Passover? I'm thinking you did a brain cramp on that one. Saturday is just the regular sabbath. But Saturday evening at sunset is the beginning of first fruit. Yeshua rose as the first fruits, so that timing makes sense and is exactly 3 day and 3 nights from Wednesday at sunset.

Friday was neither a high sabbath nor a regular sabbath. Therefore the women were free to prepare the spices, but they couldn't enter the tomb because the guards were still there as 3 days and 3 nights hadn't passed.

Also, the Thursday being reckoned as a high sabbath, was on the wrong day according to scripture, but it was strenuously enforced by the same Pharisees who just executed Yeshua on trumped up charges, so everyone went along with that.
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
94chem said:

Quote:

It's as if an evil spirit has gone out into the world to deceive mankind from the truth of God's Word.


While I agree with this statement, and I think you can see it affirmed in places like II Peter, Jude, and Romans 1, I don't think it should take an hour-long video to explain what day on which to eat.


The 14th verses the 15th is cleared up rather quickly. But there are other obfuscation of scripture you are unaware of such as the High Sabbaths, counting the Omer, First fruits, reckoning the first month and others that are addressed.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Frok said:

Making sure I understand the theory:

Wednesday - Crucifixion - Jesus body put in tomb
Thursday - High Day Passover
Friday - This is the day I'm not understanding. What happened on Friday?
Saturday - Passover
Sunday - Resurrection


With a Wed crucifixion
Wed- Passover and crucifixion
Thurs- 1st day of unleavened bread (a high holy day and special type of sabbath)
Fri- a "normal" day
Saturday- Sabbath
Sunday eve- Jesus rose. What we call night of the 7th day, they would call the eve of the 1st day
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Isn't that 4 nights, though?
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jabin said:

Isn't that 4 nights, though?


Not sure who you're asking. But I suspect your confusion comes from counting days According to the Roman Gregorin method and not the way God tells us He reckons days. According to God in Genesis chapter 1, a new day starts in the evening (ie sunset). If Yeshua is put in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset and then rose Saturday at sunset, that is exactly 72 hours (3 days and 3 nights According to the way God reckons days and nights).
Win At Life
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jabin said:

Isn't that 4 nights, though?


Not sure who you're asking. But I suspect your confusion comes from counting days According to the Roman Gregorin method and not the way God tells us He reckons days. According to God in Genesis chapter 1, a new day starts in the evening (ie sunset). If Yeshua is put in the tomb on Wednesday at sunset and then rose Saturday at sunset, that is exactly 72 hours (3 days and 3 nights According to the way God reckons days and nights).

If you're respondingto Ramblin, then, yeah, I disagreewithRamblin. If He didn't rise until early Sunday morning, that would be past 72 hours and into the 4th day. Just because Yeshua first appeared to people early Sunday morning, doesn't mean that's the moment He rose from the grave. If you assume that, then you can never make exactly 3 days and 3 nights work out because he was put in the tomb at sunset.
ramblin_ag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I said Sunday eve specifically to mean the evening before Sunday. We would call that Saturday night. Like Christmas Eve and Christmas. So a Wed crucifixion would mean a Saturday night/Sunday Eve resurrection. Christ rose on the first day of the week, but in Israel the week starts at sundown on the weekly sabbath
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks Win and ramblin. Good info and explanation.
aggiedad20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
swimmerbabe11 said:

aggiedad20 said:

This argument has been around for decades if not longer. We don't need bunnies, baskets or chocolate to have faith in the resurrection. Christ raised from the dead as He promised and the Lord's church gathers every Sunday to worship and memorialize His death burial and resurrection.

"Easter" is a non-biblical distraction. Celebrate it culturally if you like, but not religiously.


Distraction from what?

Wouldn't celebrating it culturally with bunnies and baskets, but not talking about the resurrection and grace of God be a distraction?



Materialistic chocolate bunnies and plastic eggs add zero value to the significance of the resurrection. Zero. Materialism has no place in the gospel.

Christians reflect and meditate on the resurrection EVERY SUNDAY during worship assembly. The "Easter"tradition commercialization is recent and unnecessary imo

Christian "holidays" are unscriptural and therefore, unauthorized. Granted, it may make some people feel better about themselves and/or their values, but recognition or celebration of said holidays are utterly worthless in the mission of the church or the plan of salvation.






Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG

Quote:

Christian "holidays" are unscriptural and therefore, unauthorized. Granted, it may make some people feel better about themselves and/or their values, but recognition or celebration of said holidays are utterly worthless in the mission of the church or the plan of salvation.
I think you may be missing the feasts which the Lord both established and participated in. And the apostles who also participated in these feasts afterwards - affirming them with new significance. St Paul among them, explicitly in the New Testament. Chief among these feasts would be Passover, which is the most frequent and primary way the scriptures portray the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord - the new Passover, through which the Lord saves His people from bondage to sin and death.
aggiedad20
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"Go into all the world and celebrate traditions and feasts"

~ Jesus probably
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You're doing that joke wrong.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.