Hating homosexuals?
Quad Dog said:
What you end up with is one group of Christians deciding one book that a different group of Christians label as allegory is actual literal fact and the Earth is 6,000 years old. While a different group of Christians will claim sectionsabout hating homosexualsused as justification for hating homosexuals are to be followed verbatim, while also claiming other similar sections are to be interpreted through a historical lens for a different audience thousands of years ago.
Meanwhile the rest of us see this nonsense, and just say "let me know when you decide what your religions says before I decide to follow it" Who are we supposed to believe?
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Meanwhile the rest of us see this nonsense, and just say "let me know when you decide what your religions says before I decide to follow it" Who are we supposed to believe?
Zobel said:
That looks nothing like Christ. And, just to be clear, the scriptures don't say to judge with love. They say to not judge.
Groups like that are a horrible witness to the faith.
Zobel said:
One, it's not literally word for word what it says.
Two, go ahead and demonstrate that you've removed the beam. That you're set straight. Your assumption is someone has. I haven't. Have you?
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I suppose the command here to be no other than that we should always put the best interpretation on such actions as seem doubtful with what mind they were done. But concerning such as cannot be done with good purpose, as adulteries, blasphemies, and the like, He permits us to judge; but of indifferent actions which admit of being done with either good or bad purpose, it is rash to judge, but especially so to condemn. There are two cases in which we should be particularly on our guard against hasty judgments, when it does not appear with what mind the action was done; and when it does not yet appear, what sort of man any one may turn out, who now seems either good or bad. Wherefore he should neither blame those things of which we know with what mind they are done, nor so blame those things which are manifest, as though we despaired of recovery. ....
First cast the hatred away from you, and then, but not before, shall you be able to amend him whom you love. The word hypocrite is aptly employed here, since the denouncing of evils is best viewed as a matter only for upright persons of goodwill. When the wicked engage in it, they are like impersonators, masqueraders, hiding their real selves behind a mask, while they portray another's character through the mask. The word hypocrites in fact signifies pretenders. Hence we ought especially to avoid that meddlesome class of pretenders who under the pretense of seeking advice undertake the censure of all kinds of vices. They are often moved by hatred and malice. Rather, whenever necessity compels one to reprove or rebuke another, we ought to proceed with godly discernment and caution. First of all, let us consider whether the other fault is such as we ourselves have never had or whether it is one that we have overcome. Then, if we have never had such a fault, let us remember that we are human and could have had it. But if we have had it and are rid of it now, let us remember our common frailty, in order that mercy, not hatred, may lead us to the giving of correction and admonition. In this way, whether the admonition occasions the amendment or the worsening of the one for whose sake we are offering it (for the result cannot be foreseen), we ourselves shall be made safe through singleness of eye. But if on reflection we find that we ourselves have the same fault as the one we are about to reprove, let us neither correct nor rebuke that one. Rather, let us bemoan the fault ourselves and induce that person to a similar concern, without asking him to submit to our correction.
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Otherwise; He forbids us to judge God touching His promises; for as judgements among men are founded on things uncertain, so this judgment against God is drawn from somewhat that is doubtful. And He therefore would have us put away the custom from us altogether; for it is not here as in other cases where it is sin to have given a false judgment; but here we have begun to sin if we have pronounced any judgment at all
Speak up to whom? "Society"? We have scriptures telling us how to interact with society. None of them say to speak up. On the contrary I think it is fairly clear from the scriptures that our witness as Christians is how we live, not what we say.Quote:
I don't think we are too far apart. That being said, when a common belief is sinful and leading society as a whole down a dark path, I do believe it is important to speak up.
Again, what is our society? America? No - our kingdom is the Lord's. Our king is Christ Jesus. Our people are the people of God. Our society is the kingdom of heaven, and in the kingdom we are called to be righteous.Quote:
The Do Not Judge scripture has become an excuse for professed Christians to stay silent on issues to avoid conflict and to try to keep people from looking ill upon them and that has been a horrible mistake for our society.
What is this random hypothetical? Refuses to comment? Are we having moral press conferences now? We are to speak the truth in love - but in time, and place. Not to the world, and not to comment on generalities. And not to society, because you don't speak to the world in love. We don't love the world, or society - we love people and God.Quote:
when a christian says that they refuse to comment on a sinful thing because they "don't judge".
or when Christians are told not to judge just to shut them up they are twisting scripture and that leads to some pretty dark places.
This is what I don't understand. When is it "needed"? When you see - or think you see - someone you don't know sinning, is that "needed"? When someone asks you to comment on a hypothetical, is that "needed"?Quote:
You can be gracious but resolute at the same time in calling sin what it is and rebuking it when it is needed.
Great post. And a great way to start off the Lord's Day.Zobel said:Speak up to whom? "Society"? We have scriptures telling us how to interact with society. None of them say to speak up. On the contrary I think it is fairly clear from the scriptures that our witness as Christians is how we live, not what we say.Quote:
I don't think we are too far apart. That being said, when a common belief is sinful and leading society as a whole down a dark path, I do believe it is important to speak up.
The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining brighter and brighter until midday.
As foreigners and exiles, abstain from the desires of the flesh, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us...For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorance of foolish men.
In your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
For we are taking great care to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord, but also in the eyes of men.Again, what is our society? America? No - our kingdom is the Lord's. Our king is Christ Jesus. Our people are the people of God. Our society is the kingdom of heaven, and in the kingdom we are called to be righteous.Quote:
The Do Not Judge scripture has become an excuse for professed Christians to stay silent on issues to avoid conflict and to try to keep people from looking ill upon them and that has been a horrible mistake for our society.What is this random hypothetical? Refuses to comment? Are we having moral press conferences now? We are to speak the truth in love - but in time, and place. Not to the world, and not to comment on generalities. And not to society, because you don't speak to the world in love. We don't love the world, or society - we love people and God.Quote:
when a christian says that they refuse to comment on a sinful thing because they "don't judge".
or when Christians are told not to judge just to shut them up they are twisting scripture and that leads to some pretty dark places.
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
"When words are many, sin is unavoidable, but he who restrains his lips is wise."
"A man of knowledge restrains his words, and a man of understanding maintains a calm spirit."
"Do not be quick to speak, and do not be hasty in your heart to utter a word before God. God is in heaven and you are on earth. So let your words be few."
"Be angry, yet do not sin; on your bed, search your heart and be still."
"Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, for man's anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save your souls."
"We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to control his whole body."
"I will watch my ways so that I will not sin with my tongue; I will guard my mouth with a muzzle as long as the wicked are present"This is what I don't understand. When is it "needed"? When you see - or think you see - someone you don't know sinning, is that "needed"? When someone asks you to comment on a hypothetical, is that "needed"?Quote:
You can be gracious but resolute at the same time in calling sin what it is and rebuking it when it is needed.
When society is wrong, is that "needed"? We've already established that it is not our business to judge those outside the Church. Rebuke and teaching and even speaking the gospel require a bridge, a relationship. The words of rebuke are heavy - especially rebuke of deeply seated issues or problems. A weak bridge will collapse under the weight. Look at how St Paul speaks to his spiritual children - "you know we lived among you for your sake" "You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous, and blameless our conduct was among you who believed." "We have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in relation to you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God" "I urge you to imitate me." "We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have exploited no one." " I was not a burden to anyone" You can't say these things to strangers. It does no one any good to have a random person tell them they're a sinner. That's not love. That's not how Christ acted!
"First remove the log," to me, means be without sin. There is only one person who can fix us, and that is Christ Jesus. In the metaphor, it makes a LOT more sense to ask the brother with the mote to help you with the log.
But - yes, some people are called to speak to to the world, to be apostles, one sent, to be a prophet, to be a teacher. Some, but not many. "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?" Some are fishers of men - the rest of us are fish. And our job is clear, to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." As St Seraphim of Sarov said, "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved."
Or again, "You cannot be too gentle, too kind. Shun even to appear harsh in your treatment of each other. Joy, radiant joy, streams from the face of him who gives and kindles joy in the heart of him who receives."
And again, "All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each otherinstead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace."
And again, "Keep silent, refrain from judgment. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult, and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil."
We should always err on the side of peace, of forgiveness, of humility. Judgment is an invitation to pride and hypocrisy. Rather than looking for all of the boxes we have to check and all the excuses we can make in order to be able to judge, we should instead be continuously forgiving others, ascribing the best motives to them, and seeking to "judge ourselves properly."