Question on Revelation, Canon, and Augustine

3,459 Views | 15 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by AgLiving06
PacifistAg
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AG
I saw a quote attributed to St Augustine regarding the inclusion of Revelation in the canon of Scripture, but cannot find a direct source. Can anyone tell me if this is a valid quote, and if so, where I can find it? I'm suspicious since I cannot find it anywhere, but I know there others here that are far more knowledgeable on early-ish church writings.
Quote:

The book of Revelation should only be included in the canon of Scripture if it is not interpreted literally, and never used to predict the future.

lobopride
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Interesting article I googled.

https://www.writing.com/main/view_item.php/item_id/1546085-Revelation-Augustines-Commentary

Zobel
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AG
It wasn't read broadly in the East. It still is not read liturgically in Orthodox Churches - like at all, it's not in the lexicon. The rest of the entire NT is read each year. Depending on your definition of scripture, it may not qualify.
PacifistAg
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AG
Zobel said:

It wasn't read broadly in the East. It still is not read liturgically in Orthodox Churches - like at all, it's not in the lexicon. The rest of the entire NT is read each year. Depending on your definition of scripture, it may not qualify.
Thanks for that. Interesting.
Martin Q. Blank
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The quote doesn't make much sense anyway.

1. It should only be included if it's interpreted literally? Why? It's either a sacred writing or not.
2. There are literal elements to it. John was on Patmos. He heard a voice. He had a vision. etc.
3. Most of the book is a prediction of the future.
codker92
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AG
Thing is, little do these denominations know that about 99% of the stuff in revelation already is in the OT books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah etc. It honestly really doesn't matter if they take it out or not.
PacifistAg
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AG
What denominations?
codker92
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AG
Eastern tradition etc. I would also say about 90% of Christians in general.
Zobel
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AG
No one is taking anything out. It was never part of the lectionary in the East.
codker92
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AG
Most of the same material is the in the OT already. Revelation could be de canonized. And honestly a lot of the New Testament save the Gospels is based on OT themes.

New Testament is an inspired midrash of OT
dermdoc
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AG
https://www.stjohnsmcc.org/gospel-of-revelation/resources/returning-the-book-of-revelation-to-its-historical-context.html

I thought this was a good paper.
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ramblin_ag02
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AG
I think the whole idea of Rapture is what has made Revelation so popular these days. It's a very unpleasant book, and any first read of the book foretells vast suffering for all of humanity and immense persecution. It all sorts itself in the end, but it's not fun reading material. It isn't until you couple it with a pre-tribulation Rapture that Revelation becomes a "fun read". Once you put those together, all the bad stuff happens to other people and you get to spectate the end of the world while eating popcorn and drinking soda. Then you get to enjoy the happy ending. It's the gladiator arena write large across creation and you get to be in the stands
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Sully
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

... and you get to be in the stands


Not me, I'm getting in on the action and will be riding a white horse!
UTExan
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I can certainly understand why, post-Constantine, Revelation would have been unpopular with the church, because the church was now part of the ruling establishment. I also understand that the imagery evoked in John's vision is too fantastic for many Christians to take literally because they are unable to relate the vision to their reality. And that is okay. If it all seems too fantastic now, we should wait to see how the vision/prophecy plays out.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Redstone
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AG
For Protestants:
Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry

For Apostolic (Orthodox / Catholic):
you are already involved in some measure of preterism, which makes Revelation and 1st Century history (especially 67-70) quite intelligible!!!
nortex97
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AG
Quote:

Appealing to conditions in the first century to shed light on the meaning of Revelation does not confine the relevance of the book to the first century. Rather, it ensures that the book is relevant to all ages. It is when the book is rigidly interpreted in light of twenty-first century conditions that Revelation becomes trivialized. The Book of Revelation is the work of a specific writer, who wrote under specific circumstances, to specific recipients, and in a specific literary genre; all with the assurance that his message would be understood. The political and religious circumstances can be somewhat deduced from the text, and John's concern that his readers know that God is still in control is readily apparent. Though written initially to Christians undergoing some manner of persecution, or expected persecution, Revelation still has much to say to the modern reader.
Revelation conveys a sense of the sovereignty of God that no other New Testament book employs. The presentation of God on the throne being worshiped challenges even the modern reader to see beyond their earthly circumstances. There is also clear relief provided to the modern Christian in the knowledge of God's final defeat of evil and God's final judgement. Revelation offers its readers a high Christology as well, for Jesus is presented in imagery only appropriate for God. Indeed, Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, through whom God's purposes on earth will ultimately be accomplished. D. S. Russell writes:
Quote:

Perhaps it was, partly at least, because it was "too political" that grave hesitations were expressed concerning [Revelation's] acceptance within the canon of scripture in the first place. Thankfully, as with Daniel, it has been preserved as scripture and has proved to be a source of enormous strength to many generations of Christians, not least our own. It's mixture of politics and paradise is not as strange as it might at first sight appear to be. In the apocalyptic books, not least in the book of Revelation, we have a mingling of the natural and the supernatural which is surely a reflection of the incarnation itself.


That was really a good commentary, thx Dermdoc.
AgLiving06
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ramblin_ag02 said:

I think the whole idea of Rapture is what has made Revelation so popular these days. It's a very unpleasant book, and any first read of the book foretells vast suffering for all of humanity and immense persecution. It all sorts itself in the end, but it's not fun reading material. It isn't until you couple it with a pre-tribulation Rapture that Revelation becomes a "fun read". Once you put those together, all the bad stuff happens to other people and you get to spectate the end of the world while eating popcorn and drinking soda. Then you get to enjoy the happy ending. It's the gladiator arena write large across creation and you get to be in the stands

Agree. The "Left Behind" books were huge sellers back in the day I bet shaped a healthy bit of Non-Denom churches.
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