How Catholic Leaders help give rise to violence at the US Capitol

5,844 Views | 106 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Seamaster
PabloSerna
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Fr. James Martin's essay from America magazine (a Jesuit review) regarding a topic that was discussed on this very board not too long ago. I found it very interesting and alarming at the same time. I have met Fr. Frank Pavone in the past and know him to be a good man who may have let his passion get the best of him lately. Will pray for him and others that may have unintendedly urge good people to make some rash decisions.



Serotonin
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The pro-life movement has been around for decades and many religious voices have cautioned, often aggressively, against Christians voting Democratic since the party is in favor of legalized abortion.

I think it's a pretty big stretch to connect that to the capitol protest.
jrico2727
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Fr. James Martin, S.J. is a heretic priest who is using Marxist tactics to gaslight the conservative and orthodox Catholics. I pray for his soul, but he has led many a stray.
PabloSerna
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I think the point of his essay was that, that is no longer the case and it has escalated. Based on the quotes and videos posted - I would have to agree with him.

PabloSerna
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jrico2727 said:

Fr. James Martin, S.J. is a heretic priest who is using Marxist tactics to gaslight the conservative and orthodox Catholics. I pray for his soul, but he has led many a stray.

Please lay out your accusation with the facts. I'm interested, because I don't see it.


jrico2727
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He is extremely pro sodomy to begin with, he has publicly questioned the infallibility of Holy Scripture. He supported a heretics ascent or theft of the presidency. Look who he is attacking in the article, Fr. Altman, Bishop Strickland, Cardinal Burke, even Raymond Arroyo for goodness sake. It clear he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.



craigernaught
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Quote:

He supported a heretics ascent or theft of the presidency.

Eyeroll.
PacifistAg
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It's always odd seeing that criticism from a tribe that supported a narcissistic serial adulterer, habitual liar, and one who proudly (and childishly) bullies anyone who disagrees. Yet someone like Greg Locke escapes criticism from the tribe. Go figure.

As for the use of the feminine pronoun for the Holy Spirit, if I'm not mistaken, the term used in the original language is a feminine term. Greg Boyd touched on this in one of his books. He uses masculine forms for the Father because that's what the Scripture uses. He uses masculine for Jesus because He was a male. He uses feminine for the Spirit because that's what Scripture uses. It also makes sense given that male and female were created in the image of the triune God.
chap
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PacifistAg said:

As for the use of the feminine pronoun for the Holy Spirit, if I'm not mistaken, the term used in the original language is a feminine term. Greg Boyd touched on this in one of his books. He uses masculine forms for the Father because that's what the Scripture uses. He uses masculine for Jesus because He was a male. He uses feminine for the Spirit because that's what Scripture uses. It also makes sense given that male and female were created in the image of the triune God.
Setting aside the fact there is a significant difference between grammatical gender and personal gender (which one should understand if they are going to opine on it) this just isn't true. Greek use of Holy Spirit is a grammatically neuter noun, not masculine or feminine.
PabloSerna
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All that you have presented are in no way definitive examples of heresy as I have understood it from the The Code of Canon Law (751), which reads in part, "Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith".

Is the matter it controversial? Yes, I would agree with that assessment.

Is it challenging the traditional understanding held by the RCC in matters of faith and morals? Yes, I would agree with that assessment as well.

However, none of that amount to the level of formal heresy as you have leveled. If you want to only read books with the imprimatur on it - go for it. Catholics have that wonderful stamp as a point of recourse. Just realize not every Catholic author applies for such a designation.

To me, this is part of the discussion. We need to talk about "same-sex sexual" behavior, which even he admits is condemned in scripture. However, he understands correctly that the bible is not infallible. He points out a very important example in which our understanding of something as old as slavery has evolved. I know - not the same type of slavery (indentured vs. chattel). However, it represents a level of inquiry that happened to better understand God's will for man. Papal bulls were written to condemn slavery, yet many Catholic Countries continued in the slave trade.

However, I do want to point out this level of charged language (heretic). It seems to me that this tactic, a sort of character assassination, is employed when someone presents a different view on one's understanding. I would hope that we could discuss the merits instead of the person. I think it's OK to say something like, of course Fr. So-and-so would say this, they are coming from a such and such background, but avoid labeling people with "heretic" or "wolf in sheep's clothing" - this is what he wrote about that he connects to effectively inciting good people to do wrong things.

+pablo


Here is a PDF by a priest responding to this very issue. "What is and isn't a heresy"
Aggrad08
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craigernaught said:

Quote:

He supported a heretics ascent or theft of the presidency.

Eyeroll.


Let's keep this drool where it belongs. Let's stick to the part about not condemning the gays or noticing the bits in the OT about slavery
jrico2727
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He formally condones sinful lifestyles, instead of loving the sinner and imploring them to stop there sinful ways he lets them rejoice in their transgressions and not repent. He is allowing souls to bring themselves to the judgment of God, not ready for the test or worse thinking the were justified with their sin. Does this man serve the Kingdom of God or his enemies?.
Now from Bishops Strickland and Chaput have rebuked him and he persists, his brother priests have spoken up and he ignores them, the laity have even spoken out and been ignored as well.
You correctly defined Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith. Sadly, Fr. Martin meets this definition.
craigernaught
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Maybe you can address his argument instead of derailing the thread.
PacifistAg
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Trust me, Greg Boyd understands the difference. He's not saying the Spirit is a woman. He uses terms consistent with the grammatical gender of the term used in its original language.
chap
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PacifistAg said:

Trust me, Greg Boyd understands the difference. He's not saying the Spirit is a woman. He uses terms consistent with the grammatical gender of the term used in its original language.


Except he isn't. The term isn't feminine in its original language.
Seamaster
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What clap trap.

Jimmy Martin is a heretic Marxist. Jimmy has been spending the past year + basically doing all the things he's complaining about to faithful Catholics.

Jimmy could just as easily have the Antifa riots pinned on him and his ilk for his loose talk.
craigernaught
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Spirit/breath is feminine in Hebrew.
chap
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That is true. Hebrew word for spirit means a lot of different things in the OT.

But, like I said, Holy Spirit has a neuter gender grammatically in Greek.
craigernaught
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This is one of the reasons why I don't think we should make a big deal out of male/female terms in describing the trinitarian persons, excluding the second person who becomes human. By becoming human, the second person becomes male. The non-created, non-biological trinitarian persons don't have sexes or genders in any way that we would recognize. Does the Father have XY chromosomes or something or take on traditional gender roles for the universe?

I prefer non-gendered terms for God (excluding Father/Son terminology and those specific to Jesus) and I don't think that the feminine HS and masculine Father and Son terms are very helpful. But if people want to do those kinds of things, it doesn't really bother me. These seem to be curiosities of our languages rather than revealing something specifically about God's gender.
PacifistAg
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Agreed
Zobel
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+infinity and ugh to gender warriors attack on scripture. One party is trying to neuter everything and a different party is trying to regender everything.
Zobel
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Except Jesus said Father, not ungendered parent.

I don't know how you can refer to God and not refer to the Trinity. There is no God but God, and that God is Father, Son, and Spirit.
craigernaught
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"Gender warriors" lol

Double eyeroll.
Zobel
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Being offended by "brethren" lol
Triple eye roll.

At least my opinions aren't expecting the words of scripture scripture be changed to suit the social zeitgeist.
craigernaught
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I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm not offended by "brethren". Are you confusing me with someone else?
Zobel
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Right, the people I'm describing as gender warriors are those who are offended by the word brethren in the scriptures. Or who want to amend the scriptures to change things like adoption as sons to adoption as children.

Like what has been done in the NRSV. Not speculation.
Zobel
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Or the NIV after 2011. Didn't realize that had happened until I looked.
craigernaught
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Exactly who is offended by the use of the word brethren? Who are these "gender warriors"? Is this a criticism of Boyd, Pacifist, or just some observation on the NSRV?

This just seems really random.
Zobel
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Sorry for being unclear. I see the desire to neuter scripture and the desire to gender the Holy Spirit as a "she" as two sides of the same coin. The mention of one side is why I mentioned the other. I think both sides are a product of our current culture.

It here has been quite a kerfluffle over it here in recent years, especially between ex-baptist progressive evangelicals and more conservative still-Baptist baptists.

Here's a serious treatment of the topic. Which is kind of an odd statement in and of itself.
https://bible.org/article/do-gender-sensitive-translations-distort-scripture-not-necessarily
PacifistAg
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Yeah, I'm certainly not offended by the use of the word "brethren" in Scripture.
craigernaught
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I'm familiar with the issue, specifically the NRSV's gender inclusive translation. I had to study it back in school where we had a strict gender inclusive language policy that could result in students failing classes and where the NRSV was the standard translation. I was just confused what this had to do with what is happening in this thread. And I suspect you've misread what I wrote.

I disagree with the attempt to use masculine terms for Father and Son while also using feminine terms for the Holy Spirit as Greg Boyd does. Many of my friends do the same. I understand why, particularly the use of feminine imagery and language for the Spirit and Wisdom in the text alongside the masculine usage for Father, Son, and God generally, but I think it creates more problems than it solves. And I think it unnecessarily tries to find a compromise to problem that doesn't really exist. I don't think the masculine language of Father and Son is overly problematic or somehow makes the Father, or the Triune God, biologically male. If people want to disagree and claim that there's a divine Y chromosome, they're free to I guess.

If they want to use masculine language and refer to God as "he" or Father, Son, or HS as "he", again, that's fine. But I can't imagine God as male in the biological sense that I do. Nor do I think God is male in terms of gender expression or however else we could use the term. I think that devotion to the curiosities of Hebrew and Greek's masculine and feminine forms is often about modern cultural fights rather than using precise theological language. So I simply say "God" or refer to the the trinitarian persons as "Father", "Son", and "HS" rather than he or she. That's the extent of what I mean by "gender inclusive". Attempts to avoid biblical and traditional terminology like "parent" or "creator, redeemer, sustainer" instead of the traditional language is, I believe, a mistake. And I think that the NRSV's gender inclusivity goes too far, but more importantly, is not effectively communicated to the common reader who is often surprised to learn that the original language says something different creating a whole new set of problems.

As an aside, insults like "gender warrior" aren't helping your cause here. I don't know why you're insisting on being unnecessarily rude. It seems out of character.
craigernaught
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If you believe the Trinity can be seen in OT language, as I do, particularly with regard to the Holy Spirit and how it uses breath/wind/spirit/wisdom, it seems especially odd to adamantly object to using feminine or gender neutral language in English. Those terms in Hebrew are feminine but in Greek the Spirit is neutral. The gender form changed.

People make too big of a deal about this.
Zobel
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I wasn't applying gender warrior to anyone in this thread, sorry for the confusion. It was about /hand waves/ out there. The folks that are ideologically gendering, or re gendering, or de gendering things.

And I think we are on the same page - the argument is about modern cultural fights, which is why I object to almost all of it.

Now, as to God as masculine. I think there's a confusion here, maybe. I don't understand how you can refer to God and not be referring to one of the persons, unless specifically you are talking about the Monad as such. In our tradition we never pray to "God" but to the Father, or the Son, or the Spirit. Jesus was a man. He referred to His Father as Father, so I think it makes sense to refer to the Father as "He". In general, I think when people refer to God without a further Trinitarian modifier it's about the Father. Hence, again He. The Spirit is the only challenge, linguistically, because while we have a neuter, "it" is somehow disrespectful and depersonal in our language. But it is, after all, the Spirit of the Son. He seems generally appropriate.

There is gender in language which incidental and which isn't. Some languages can not support a neuter - as someone pointed out, grammatical gender versus personal. There are those who believe there's some kind of divine or cultural implications between gendered languages. I'm not sure I see it. That native Hebrew speakers chose to use the neuter in Greek when translating what is grammatically female in Hebrew is an argument for the Spirit being used as neuter if possible. That it is feminine in the Hebrew is not an argument for rendering it female in English because breath, wind, and spirit are not sexed in English. Referring to the Spirit as He to avoid a grammatical issue in English with It isn't a confession of Y chromosome in the Spirit.

Sorry for being confusing, I wasn't implying anyone here was a gender warrior.
FalconAg06
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Any Catholic who doesn't see the blatant motives of Fr James Martin is either blind or willfully complicit in his agenda. He longs for a day gay married couples can kiss during the pax in mass.

He is a gay agent provocateur and like the rest of the Jesuit solely exist for pushing Marxism into the Church
c-jags
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craigernaught said:

"Gender warriors" lol

Double eyeroll.


I mean we did just open up Congress with amen and awomen by a minister.
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