Salvation is a common theme in the Bible. I want to be saved. It has something to do with believing in Jesus, but I don't know what that means. Others say be baptized which seems superstitious.
How to be saved?
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Last: 3 yr ago by dermdoc
Baptism is an ordinance after one is saved, to outwardly identify as a believer and place one into a local body of believers (church). Salvation is by faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (his death, burial, and resurrection as the only means of atonement for our sin). It's not the words or the prayer that saves, it's the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin and a contrite heart recognizing we need a Savior. The Fellowship Tract League has a great tract below:
https://fellowshiptractleague.org/tract_pdf/english/167.pdf
https://fellowshiptractleague.org/tract_pdf/english/167.pdf
If you're not down with the modern Christian jargon it can be confusing. In the scriptures, there's a grand storyline that begins with this epic prologue about the world being created, why Man was put there in the first place, and how everything goes wrong when Man rebels against God. That happens in like the first three pages. From there, literally the rest of the story is about fixing all of that. That "fixing" is two things - Man, and the world. Man needs to be fixed because when we rebelled, we were cut off from God and life, and so we die. Mortality - death - is one thing to be saved from. The other thing is that we have ruined the good world God created, so that needs to be fixed. Part of fixing the world is restitution of all wrongs - restorative justice. But if you are a part of the problem, that restorative justice will not be a pleasant thing.
God put Man on earth to reign as His regents. From the beginning our job is to work, like He works, in the world. He basically allows humanity to go off in their rebellion, and finds a particular person to start this restorative work. From that person He makes a family, and from that family He makes a nation, and ultimately that nation produces a single woman from whom He takes His humanity and becomes a human Himself. He steps into the garbage, so to speak. That person is Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully Man. Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be killed, so that through His own death He defeats death, through His own love and divinity He takes away the error and hurts of the world. He defeats the enemies who caused the human rebellion in the first place. He told people to go and teach this message to not only this particular nation, but to all the nations of the world - because remember, the plan from the start is to fix everything and everyone. And, that ultimately He will reappear to enact that judgment and to restore, and restart the creation with the new creation.
Salvation, then, is two things: one, whether we like it or not, all men are saved from death by Christ Jesus' victory over death. When He appears, everyone will be made alive. Two, in that day there will be judgment. We'll all be judged by what we did, good and bad. So there's a salvation from being wrong, being on the wrong end of things at the end.
Belief and faith are two English words that we picked up from German and Latin to make two different ideas. But the scriptures don't have two - just one. That word in Greek is pisteuo, and at the basic level it means trust. Believing in Jesus isn't cognitive assent to a set of facts. It is trusting in, being loyal to, having faith and confidence in Him. It is the opposite of being in rebellion to Him, putting your trust and confidence in yourself, or in humanity, or even in other divine or spiritual beings to give your life meaning or purpose or to save you from anything else.
The message, then, of how to be saved is the same one all through the scriptures: turn away, change, repent, do a hasty 180 when you learn what you're doing is wrong. And, coupled to that, repent because you are going to trust that God is faithful, and ultimately right, and the person you will be loyal to. There is this idea that He has made promises to us, and we accept these promises through our actions. Baptism is the means of being joined to this promise, and has both a simple confessional aspect - yes, I assent to this, I enter into this - but also a spiritual one. Much like marriage. A baptism is not magic - it is a beginning, not and end. Much like marriage.
God put Man on earth to reign as His regents. From the beginning our job is to work, like He works, in the world. He basically allows humanity to go off in their rebellion, and finds a particular person to start this restorative work. From that person He makes a family, and from that family He makes a nation, and ultimately that nation produces a single woman from whom He takes His humanity and becomes a human Himself. He steps into the garbage, so to speak. That person is Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully Man. Jesus Christ allowed Himself to be killed, so that through His own death He defeats death, through His own love and divinity He takes away the error and hurts of the world. He defeats the enemies who caused the human rebellion in the first place. He told people to go and teach this message to not only this particular nation, but to all the nations of the world - because remember, the plan from the start is to fix everything and everyone. And, that ultimately He will reappear to enact that judgment and to restore, and restart the creation with the new creation.
Salvation, then, is two things: one, whether we like it or not, all men are saved from death by Christ Jesus' victory over death. When He appears, everyone will be made alive. Two, in that day there will be judgment. We'll all be judged by what we did, good and bad. So there's a salvation from being wrong, being on the wrong end of things at the end.
Belief and faith are two English words that we picked up from German and Latin to make two different ideas. But the scriptures don't have two - just one. That word in Greek is pisteuo, and at the basic level it means trust. Believing in Jesus isn't cognitive assent to a set of facts. It is trusting in, being loyal to, having faith and confidence in Him. It is the opposite of being in rebellion to Him, putting your trust and confidence in yourself, or in humanity, or even in other divine or spiritual beings to give your life meaning or purpose or to save you from anything else.
The message, then, of how to be saved is the same one all through the scriptures: turn away, change, repent, do a hasty 180 when you learn what you're doing is wrong. And, coupled to that, repent because you are going to trust that God is faithful, and ultimately right, and the person you will be loyal to. There is this idea that He has made promises to us, and we accept these promises through our actions. Baptism is the means of being joined to this promise, and has both a simple confessional aspect - yes, I assent to this, I enter into this - but also a spiritual one. Much like marriage. A baptism is not magic - it is a beginning, not and end. Much like marriage.
"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
Trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior and your life will begin to change. God will then make all things clear as you yield to His Lordship and read His Word.
"I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:14-16 (ESV)
Trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior and your life will begin to change. God will then make all things clear as you yield to His Lordship and read His Word.
"I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:14-16 (ESV)
I appreciate your response. I guess I don't know how to do that. Maybe it comes easier to other people (clearly since there are a LOT of Christians).Quote:
It is trusting in, being loyal to, having faith and confidence in Him. It is the opposite of being in rebellion to Him, putting your trust and confidence in yourself, or in humanity, or even in other divine or spiritual beings to give your life meaning or purpose or to save you from anything else.
Good thing there are no Calvinists here to muddy this up.
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I appreciate your response. I guess I don't know how to do that. Maybe it comes easier to other people (clearly since there are a LOT of Christians).
No ones a Christian here because they knew exactly what to do and how. No ones going to leave you out of this, but this should really be processed through a church family that you belong to.
One thing I will suggest of you is to consider the cost. You can certainly do what a lot of Christians do, and just say a prayer based on a fear of death, fear of hell, or some sort of emotional response. This is not lasting. You don't have to have everything figured out, but one should consider how life changes upon becoming a disciple of Jesus. It's not just "don't look at bad stuff on the internet".
Civil04 said:
"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 (NKJV)
That whole passage is a pretty good summary on salvation. Romans 10:5-13
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Well, that's kind of where baptism comes in. In the history of the faith, when the church started, there was a new practice that everyone was called "brethren" or "brothers." In the ancient world this had a lot of meaning. You had social obligations toward your brothers, your family. The family was how you survived, how you found your place in the world.
For Israel, you were "family" in the big picture, part of Israel, by way of circumcision. For Christians, the act of becoming family is baptism. That's how you enter in. When you're family, you're not longer who or what you were - whatever that was - you are a new creation. You are not whatever ethnicity, but a Christian. Not any longer even male or female, rich or poor - as far as distinctions go - but a Christian. Baptism is how you start. Find a Church where you experience Christ, and join them. That is what baptism is.
For Israel, you were "family" in the big picture, part of Israel, by way of circumcision. For Christians, the act of becoming family is baptism. That's how you enter in. When you're family, you're not longer who or what you were - whatever that was - you are a new creation. You are not whatever ethnicity, but a Christian. Not any longer even male or female, rich or poor - as far as distinctions go - but a Christian. Baptism is how you start. Find a Church where you experience Christ, and join them. That is what baptism is.
It is a good passage, but it is frequently taken out of context... that whole passage is about how non-Jews fit in to the salvation of the world, especially seeing as Jesus is the Jewish messiah. It's the whole topic of the first 11 chapters of Romans. So yes, what he writes there is true: non-Jews are saved through faith and confession versus ethnicity or keeping the Torah (and he explains earlier that Jews are not saved by keeping the Torah either). But it isn't really about salvation as a topic. I think there are a lot of other things written by St Paul about the how and why of salvation that are more direct.
Create Account said:
Salvation is a common theme in the Bible. I want to be saved. It has something to do with believing in Jesus, but I don't know what that means. Others say be baptized which seems superstitious.
If you're interested in what the Bible says please click both links and ignore what men tell you. Especially on this forum. Good luck
http://www.thywordistruth.com/plan-of-salvation.html
https://www.gospelway.com/salvation/index.php
The good news is you are saved and have been saved since before you were born. Jesus lived, died and rose to redeem every man, woman and child that has existed. John 3:16
The bad news is that we live in a fallen and sinful state. Our flesh desires things that cause us to turn away from or to resist what God has ready for us. Romans 7. There's nothing you can do that will be enough and there's nothing that you can offer that will be sufficient
The great news is that you don't have "to do" anything per se. The Scriptures tell us that faith is sufficient for salvation. That doesn't mean we claim to have faith and then continue in our sin-filled life. James points out that faith without works is a dead faith. So we feed our faith by turning to the Scriptures, attending a good christian church and honoring God. Remember what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments. Honor God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. The fruit of your faith will help to be the seed in others. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
The bad news is that we live in a fallen and sinful state. Our flesh desires things that cause us to turn away from or to resist what God has ready for us. Romans 7. There's nothing you can do that will be enough and there's nothing that you can offer that will be sufficient
The great news is that you don't have "to do" anything per se. The Scriptures tell us that faith is sufficient for salvation. That doesn't mean we claim to have faith and then continue in our sin-filled life. James points out that faith without works is a dead faith. So we feed our faith by turning to the Scriptures, attending a good christian church and honoring God. Remember what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments. Honor God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. The fruit of your faith will help to be the seed in others. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Trust in Jesus Christ and the work he completed on your behalf and rest in that.Create Account said:
Salvation is a common theme in the Bible. I want to be saved. It has something to do with believing in Jesus, but I don't know what that means. Others say be baptized which seems superstitious.
Believe, repent, confess, be baptized, practice righteousness.
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Acts 2:36-39 (ESV): 6 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off
Romans 10:9-10 (ESV): because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
1 Peter 3:20-21 (ESV): when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Mark 16:16 (ESV): Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
1 John 3:4-10 (ESV): Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 5:1-5 (ESV): Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the worldour faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
1 John 5:13 (ESV): 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9
James 2:14-26 (ESV): What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only.
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only. - Wouldn't you say this is a contradictory statement?TxAgPreacher said:
James 2:14-26 (ESV): What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only.
James 2 is talking about being justified before other men. Faith without works is described as "dead", invoking the commonly used Biblical symbolism of the fruit-bearing tree. To bear fruit means to get other people saved. A person who is not living a very Godly life is going to have trouble getting people saved as unsaved people are not going to believe them or respect them as much. Faith without works is selfish, yes, useless to God, yes, Its a faith that does not produce fruit in the form of causing other believers to be saved, but it still gets you to Heaven. The discussion is centered around proving one's faith to other men Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Salvation is not discussed in James 2.
Verse 21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? - This is discussing Abraham being justified before other men. At the moment Abraham offers up Isaac on the altar, he was already saved. Abraham was saved (by faith only) in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. The fact that he would sacrifice his son was an outward expression of his faith and evidence of his faith to other men. Other men will not respect or believe your faith without works, that is true, but to go to Heaven, all you have to do is believe and trust fully in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life John 3:16
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
You're over complicating it. You're not saved by faith only, or works only, but by faith, and works, only possible because of Gods grace.TXaggiesTX said:
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only. - Wouldn't you say this is a contradictory statement?
James 2 is talking about being justified before other men. Faith without works is described as "dead", invoking the commonly used Biblical symbolism of the fruit-bearing tree. To bear fruit means to get other people saved. A person who is not living a very Godly life is going to have trouble getting people saved as unsaved people are not going to believe them or respect them as much. Faith without works is selfish, yes, useless to God, yes, Its a faith that does not produce fruit in the form of causing other believers to be saved, but it still gets you to Heaven. The discussion is centered around proving one's faith to other men Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Salvation is not discussed in James 2.
Verse 21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? - This is discussing Abraham being justified before other men. At the moment Abraham offers up Isaac on the altar, he was already saved. Abraham was saved (by faith only) in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. The fact that he would sacrifice his son was an outward expression of his faith and evidence of his faith to other men. Other men will not respect or believe your faith without works, that is true, but to go to Heaven, all you have to do is believe and trust fully in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life John 3:16
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
The early Christians didn't debate if they had to get baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. They were commanded to, and so they did it. Immediately.
Being baptized is a great thing that I encourage everyone to do. It is not, however, necessary for salvation. What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, lived a sinful life, yet he went to Heaven.
James 2, the chapter you just referenced says in verse 10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Works play no part in salvation. If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
James 2, the chapter you just referenced says in verse 10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Works play no part in salvation. If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
So many assumptions in this post!
"Necessary for salvation" is such a legalistic way to look at things. This implies there's some kind of score or bar or achievement level to attain salvation - over, and you're good, under and you're not. And on this list, baptism is... optional? A bonus? I'm not sure. This encourages a kind of spiritual minimalism, as we see. It's not necessary, so, you don't have to do it. It's just good, or something. But not "necessary." This kind of approach to salvation is simply not found in the scriptures.
"Went to heaven." What does this mean? Where do the scriptures ever talk about going to heaven? On the cross, the Lord tells St Dismas today you will be with Me in paradise, literally "in the garden" (paradeiso simply means a garden, or a park - a pleasure-ground). Nowhere does the Lord say - you will go to heaven, but you will be with Me. You've now introduced another assumption - "salvation" means only one thing - "going to heaven." But this again is not in the scriptures, not like this.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Yes. But the Torah, the Law, was never intended to save. St Paul is quite clear about the purpose of the Law - to reveal sin. You're tangentially introducing another unspoken idea - that "guilt" is what keeps you "out of heaven."
"Works play no part in salvation." This is irreconcilable with the teaching of the scriptures. Only by taking your earlier assumptions which lead to a legalistic, merit-based, minimalistic approach can one arrive at this conclusion. Namely, that one offense is sufficient guilt to not go to heaven, and there is some merit-measure required to offset this guilt. What you really mean to say is "works apply no merit toward going to heaven." But, since this kind of "merit" and "going to heaven" are assumptions that are being applied to a framework over and above the scripture, this idea can not be proven by an appeal to scripture.
"Necessary for salvation" is such a legalistic way to look at things. This implies there's some kind of score or bar or achievement level to attain salvation - over, and you're good, under and you're not. And on this list, baptism is... optional? A bonus? I'm not sure. This encourages a kind of spiritual minimalism, as we see. It's not necessary, so, you don't have to do it. It's just good, or something. But not "necessary." This kind of approach to salvation is simply not found in the scriptures.
"Went to heaven." What does this mean? Where do the scriptures ever talk about going to heaven? On the cross, the Lord tells St Dismas today you will be with Me in paradise, literally "in the garden" (paradeiso simply means a garden, or a park - a pleasure-ground). Nowhere does the Lord say - you will go to heaven, but you will be with Me. You've now introduced another assumption - "salvation" means only one thing - "going to heaven." But this again is not in the scriptures, not like this.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Yes. But the Torah, the Law, was never intended to save. St Paul is quite clear about the purpose of the Law - to reveal sin. You're tangentially introducing another unspoken idea - that "guilt" is what keeps you "out of heaven."
"Works play no part in salvation." This is irreconcilable with the teaching of the scriptures. Only by taking your earlier assumptions which lead to a legalistic, merit-based, minimalistic approach can one arrive at this conclusion. Namely, that one offense is sufficient guilt to not go to heaven, and there is some merit-measure required to offset this guilt. What you really mean to say is "works apply no merit toward going to heaven." But, since this kind of "merit" and "going to heaven" are assumptions that are being applied to a framework over and above the scripture, this idea can not be proven by an appeal to scripture.
Ah but the scriptures say - not that we become righteous through our own work, but that Jesus Christ became sin for us, so that in Him we become the righteousness of God. Apart from God, there is no one righteous - this is true. But we become righteous, actually righteous, in Jesus.Quote:
If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
Zobel said:
So many assumptions in this post!
"Necessary for salvation" is such a legalistic way to look at things. This implies there's some kind of score or bar or achievement level to attain salvation - over, and you're good, under and you're not. And on this list, baptism is... optional? A bonus? I'm not sure. This encourages a kind of spiritual minimalism, as we see. It's not necessary, so, you don't have to do it. It's just good, or something. But not "necessary." This kind of approach to salvation is simply not found in the scriptures.
"Went to heaven." What does this mean? Where do the scriptures ever talk about going to heaven? On the cross, the Lord tells St Dismas today you will be with Me in paradise, literally "in the garden" (paradeiso simply means a garden, or a park - a pleasure-ground). Nowhere does the Lord say - you will go to heaven, but you will be with Me. You've now introduced another assumption - "salvation" means only one thing - "going to heaven." But this again is not in the scriptures, not like this.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." Yes. But the Torah, the Law, was never intended to save. St Paul is quite clear about the purpose of the Law - to reveal sin. You're tangentially introducing another unspoken idea - that "guilt" is what keeps you "out of heaven."
"Works play no part in salvation." This is irreconcilable with the teaching of the scriptures. Only by taking your earlier assumptions which lead to a legalistic, merit-based, minimalistic approach can one arrive at this conclusion. Namely, that one offense is sufficient guilt to not go to heaven, and there is some merit-measure required to offset this guilt. What you really mean to say is "works apply no merit toward going to heaven." But, since this kind of "merit" and "going to heaven" are assumptions that are being applied to a framework over and above the scripture, this idea can not be proven by an appeal to scripture.Ah but the scriptures say - not that we become righteous through our own work, but that Jesus Christ became sin for us, so that in Him we become the righteousness of God. Apart from God, there is no one righteous - this is true. But we become righteous, actually righteous, in Jesus.Quote:
If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
1 John 3:4-10 (ESV): Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.TXaggiesTX said:
Being baptized is a great thing that I encourage everyone to do. It is not, however, necessary for salvation. What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, lived a sinful life, yet he went to Heaven.
James 2, the chapter you just referenced says in verse 10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Works play no part in salvation. If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
Also, another unspoken assumption here is that if someone keeps the Law, they go to heaven - perhaps apart or without needing Christ Jesus.Quote:
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
But the scriptures say people kept the Law. St Paul says it of himself - "as to righteousness in the Law, faultless." And not only him - the Lord says David kept the Law on several occasions. (1 Kings 3:14, 11:38, 14:8).
Or the Righteous Zechariah and Elizabeth, parents of St John the Forerunner - "Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord." Luke 1:6
Or the Righteous Simeon - "Now there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him." Luke 2:25
Part of the Law was what to do when you sinned. And so David, Paul, Simeon, Zechariah, Elizabeth, and others without a doubt were blameless in the Torah. Righteousness in the Law does not provide for salvation. And, contrariwise, transgression against the Law does not in and of itself condemn a person or preclude salvation - because the Law had a means for reconciliation, for management of sin (but not for correcting or healing it).
TXaggiesTX said:
Being baptized is a great thing that I encourage everyone to do. It is not, however, necessary for salvation. What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, lived a sinful life, yet he went to Heaven.
James 2, the chapter you just referenced says in verse 10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Works play no part in salvation. If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
Can you provide bcv where we're told the thief was never baptized bc I've never read it? I do read where all of Judea went out and were baptized by John the baptizer. I doubt the thief was a Roman citizen either so he may very well have received the baptism of John.
Also, why would the thief need NT baptism? The old dispensation was still in effect prior to Christ shedding His blood so why would the thief need it? Did Christ not have power to forgive sins while on earth?
And lastly, don't believers have to confess Christ raised from the dead? Why not make the argument the thief couldn't have know Christ raised from the dead? Have you ever heard of anyone saying "well the thief on the cross didn't confess Jesus raised from the dead so why should I! Confessing He did isn't necessary for salvation"??? Of course you haven't bc that's ridiculous. The thief on the cross is likely the worst possible argument for those who erroneously say baptism isn't necessary.
Catholics recognize baptism by "desire" of persons that are "not far from the Kingdom of God."
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Here is a PDF of an essay on this subject.
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Here is a PDF of an essay on this subject.
TXaggiesTX said:While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only. - Wouldn't you say this is a contradictory statement?TxAgPreacher said:
James 2:14-26 (ESV): What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
While I agree you cannot save yourself with works, you also are not saved by faith only.
James 2 is talking about being justified before other men. Faith without works is described as "dead", invoking the commonly used Biblical symbolism of the fruit-bearing tree. To bear fruit means to get other people saved. A person who is not living a very Godly life is going to have trouble getting people saved as unsaved people are not going to believe them or respect them as much. Faith without works is selfish, yes, useless to God, yes, Its a faith that does not produce fruit in the form of causing other believers to be saved, but it still gets you to Heaven. The discussion is centered around proving one's faith to other men Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Salvation is not discussed in James 2.
Verse 21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? - This is discussing Abraham being justified before other men. At the moment Abraham offers up Isaac on the altar, he was already saved. Abraham was saved (by faith only) in Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. The fact that he would sacrifice his son was an outward expression of his faith and evidence of his faith to other men. Other men will not respect or believe your faith without works, that is true, but to go to Heaven, all you have to do is believe and trust fully in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life John 3:16
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9
by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1
Exactly. I was fifth generation church of Christ, but I wasn't born again until I put my faith in Jesus Christ. Alone. Now the Holy Spirit works through me. He is the only good in me. Just like any true believer. We should still be baptized, but that's commanded. You do it to be obedient to God.
Acts 2:38
And what happens if you are not obedient?
In the New Testament (post cross and resurrection), baptism was the profession of faith and desire to be joined to the body of Christ. Today, it can be used as a celebration of a life that has been changed, but the original use of baptism was to declare that you have chosen Jesus/Jesus has chosen you at the expense of being on the side of the world and that you are uniting to the Body of Christ.
As to the original question, the Spirit is the one who does the heavy lifting. As has been quoted, you confess your need (because of the very thing you're struggling with, I want to be with God, but I don't know how). The good news is that very well could be proof the Spirit is already working. Repentance and trust/confession in Christ as Lord (He's in charge of your life now) and Savior (He lived a perfect life and died in your place for the penalty of sin and rose again just as you can rise) are outpourings of the Spirit in your life.
If you are still unsure, I would say spend time in prayer. God offers confidence in salvation to His children. The other step would be to connect to a good, Bible believing, Gospel preaching church where you can grow, have your faith affirmed, and move forward on your path as a disciple.
I'm sure others would offer the same help, but if you continue to struggle and would like further assistance outside the responses on this forum, feel free to send me a private message.
As to the original question, the Spirit is the one who does the heavy lifting. As has been quoted, you confess your need (because of the very thing you're struggling with, I want to be with God, but I don't know how). The good news is that very well could be proof the Spirit is already working. Repentance and trust/confession in Christ as Lord (He's in charge of your life now) and Savior (He lived a perfect life and died in your place for the penalty of sin and rose again just as you can rise) are outpourings of the Spirit in your life.
If you are still unsure, I would say spend time in prayer. God offers confidence in salvation to His children. The other step would be to connect to a good, Bible believing, Gospel preaching church where you can grow, have your faith affirmed, and move forward on your path as a disciple.
I'm sure others would offer the same help, but if you continue to struggle and would like further assistance outside the responses on this forum, feel free to send me a private message.
Zobel said:
And what happens if you are not obedient?
2 Thes 1:7-9
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
anaag75 said:
In the New Testament (post cross and resurrection), baptism was the profession of faith and desire to be joined to the body of Christ. Today, it can be used as a celebration of a life that has been changed, but the original use of baptism was to declare that you have chosen Jesus/Jesus has chosen you at the expense of being on the side of the world and that you are uniting to the Body of Christ.
As to the original question, the Spirit is the one who does the heavy lifting. As has been quoted, you confess your need (because of the very thing you're struggling with, I want to be with God, but I don't know how). The good news is that very well could be proof the Spirit is already working. Repentance and trust/confession in Christ as Lord (He's in charge of your life now) and Savior (He lived a perfect life and died in your place for the penalty of sin and rose again just as you can rise) are outpourings of the Spirit in your life.
If you are still unsure, I would say spend time in prayer. God offers confidence in salvation to His children. The other step would be to connect to a good, Bible believing, Gospel preaching church where you can grow, have your faith affirmed, and move forward on your path as a disciple.
I'm sure others would offer the same help, but if you continue to struggle and would like further assistance outside the responses on this forum, feel free to send me a private message.
Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 / 22:16 1 Peter 3:21 Rom 6:3-7
Galatians 3:26:27 Colossians 2:12-13
All paint a very different picture from your dogmatic response
If you'd like to add something more specific in terms of your assertion, I'd be happy to have a conversation.
Zobel said:
And what happens if you are not obedient?
What did Jesus say? If you love me you will what?
Acts 2:38
If you're making the assumption that baptism saves, I would say that the early church would have not known anything about a believer who didn't get baptized. Salvation and baptism happened at basically the same time, so they would be connected.
Take 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:3-4, for example, the greater context for these passages are not about baptism per se. Baptism helps Paul and Peter make a point about other subjects. These are not exegetical baptism explanation passages.
So I would say baptism should occur immediately in concert with other portions of what the Bible describes in an ordo salutis. I'm not sure our views are actually that different.
Take 1 Peter 3:21 and Romans 6:3-4, for example, the greater context for these passages are not about baptism per se. Baptism helps Paul and Peter make a point about other subjects. These are not exegetical baptism explanation passages.
So I would say baptism should occur immediately in concert with other portions of what the Bible describes in an ordo salutis. I'm not sure our views are actually that different.
aggiedad20 said:TXaggiesTX said:
Being baptized is a great thing that I encourage everyone to do. It is not, however, necessary for salvation. What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, lived a sinful life, yet he went to Heaven.
James 2, the chapter you just referenced says in verse 10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Works play no part in salvation. If living a clean life got you to Heaven, Jesus would be the only person who ever lived to go. There is none righteous, no not one.
Can you provide bcv where we're told the thief was never baptized bc I've never read it? I do read where all of Judea went out and were baptized by John the baptizer. I doubt the thief was a Roman citizen either so he may very well have received the baptism of John.
Also, why would the thief need NT baptism? The old dispensation was still in effect prior to Christ shedding His blood so why would the thief need it? Did Christ not have power to forgive sins while on earth?
And lastly, don't believers have to confess Christ raised from the dead? Why not make the argument the thief couldn't have know Christ raised from the dead? Have you ever heard of anyone saying "well the thief on the cross didn't confess Jesus raised from the dead so why should I! Confessing He did isn't necessary for salvation"??? Of course you haven't bc that's ridiculous. The thief on the cross is likely the worst possible argument for those who erroneously say baptism isn't necessary.
You are correct that it does not specifically say in the Bible that the thief was not baptized. We can infer that the thief in question was not a believer baptized because a prerequisite of baptism is belief (Acts 8:37). The thief repented (changed his mind) while on the cross, he started out mocking Jesus like everyone else before he believed.
Furthermore there are many examples in the Bible of people who are saved and not Baptized: the penitent woman in Luke 7, the paralytic man in Matthew 9, the publican in Luke 18. There's no record of the apostles being baptized, although Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins in John 15:3.
In Acts 16:30 and 31 Paul and Silas are asked the same question the OP of this thread, word for word, What must I do to be saved? Their reply? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house" - why was baptism not mentioned?
rca21978
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