I've been reading a lot of commentary on Revelation, as I truly believe we are in the End Times. I don't know if I have a firm position on where I believe we are in the outline of events, but it seems difficult to dispute that things are happening in our world which would align with Revelations.

One of the most fascinating imageries of Revelation to me is, "Babylon the Great". As I've read thru several commentaries, I have gone back and forth in my mind with whom I believe BTG to be. Depending on how you read the passage and which version and/or commentary, it can be confusing. I've landed on either the "current" U.S.A or CCP (China).

I would welcome any feedback, discussion, thoughts, otherwise on this or any other parts of Revelation!


The Fall of Babylon
18 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory. 2 And he called out with a mighty voice,

"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
3 For all nations have drunk
the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."

4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying,

"Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins,
lest you share in her plagues;
5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven,
and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others,
and repay her double for her deeds;
mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.
7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
'I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.'
8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day,
death and mourning and famine,
and she will be burned up with fire;
for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."

9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,

"Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon!
For in a single hour your judgment has come."

11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

14 "The fruit for which your soul longed
has gone from you,
and all your delicacies and your splendors
are lost to you,
never to be found again!"

15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,

16 "Alas, alas, for the great city
that was clothed in fine linen,
in purple and scarlet,
adorned with gold,
with jewels, and with pearls!
17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste."

And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

"What city was like the great city?"


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Re 18:118). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

diehard03 said:

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I don't know if I have a firm position on where I believe we are in the outline of events, but it seems difficult to dispute that things are happening in our world which would align with Revelations.

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I don't know, man. If you're having trouble identifying the players, then maybe its easier to dispute than you think.

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I think much of Revelation will be revealed over a period of years/decades, so would have to disagree on this point. Also, many of the prophesies may not actually be realized until some time after they have been 'in process', so "actors may be acting", but we don't know who they are at the time.

Just my own personal interpretation on it.

Three Twenties and A Ten said:

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diehard03 said:

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I don't know if I have a firm position on where I believe we are in the outline of events, but it seems difficult to dispute that things are happening in our world which would align with Revelations.

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I don't know, man. If you're having trouble identifying the players, then maybe its easier to dispute than you think.

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I think much of Revelation will be revealed over a period of years/decades, so would have to disagree on this point. Also, many of the prophesies may not actually be realized until some time after they have been 'in process', so "actors may be acting", but we don't know who they are at the time.

Just my own personal interpretation on it.

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Do you have a particular eschatological framework that you lean towards in your exegesis?

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I think much of Revelation will be revealed over a period of years/decades, so would have to disagree on this point. Also, many of the prophesies may not actually be realized until some time after they have been 'in process', so "actors may be acting", but we don't know who they are at the time.

Just my own personal interpretation on it.

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I understand the interest in it and I am not saying you shouldn't. But, even based on what you quoted here, why are so certain that we are in the end times in 2020.

I think Babylon the Great is not a nation, but a system of economics, thought, and religion that signifies man's defiance of God's sovereignty. Read the story of the tower of Babel.

Zobel said:

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It seems to me every generation has been convinced they were in the end times, and every generation identifies a different Babylon...

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These are not totally unprecedented times. Almost every country has been through civil wars and restructuring.

Almost the entire book of Revelation falls under "things that must soon take place"Revelation 1:1

They were written to the churches of that time to warn them about the persecution of the church at the establishment.

Very little of the book is about judgment day.

Good video if you've got 20 minutes to spare

Speaking of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), Jesus told the crowd that all would happen within their generation. You could make a strong argument that by 70AD and the fall of the temple, all did happen within that generation.

Preterism can make an argument for sure, but reading all of Mattehew 24 and Luke 13 it doesn't end with the Roman destruction of the 2nd Temple, but with the completion of the Church Age and return of Jesus Christ. Also, Matthew 24:15 refers to the abomination of desolation (prophesied in Daniel 9). This is literally the anti-Christ declaring to be God and demanding worship, which didn't happen in 70AD.

Psalm 90:10 quantifies a generation as 70-80 years and I believe scripture supports a strong declaration that the generation that witnesses the reborn Israel will also see the fulfillment of the rest of the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse. I know that know man knoweth the day or hour, but we are called to be watchmen on a wall and discerning of the times and seasons.

God Bless You.

Wuhan Virology Lab said:

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PacifistAg said:

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The problem with much of "end times" theology is that it seems to be very America-centric. We point to events taking place in America as signs that the end is nigh, but America is not special. We are not some special harbinger of things to come. We are, like all other nations throughout the history of mankind...just another nation that will rise and fall and be tossed onto the ash heap of history. We are falling victim to reading these "signs" outside the context in which it was written, but instead we read it in our own personal context here and now. Oh, and Left Behind is horrible theology.

Plus, we've been in the "end times" for 2,000 years.

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I do agree that the church age and pentecost began this final age that culminates in the return of Jesus Christ. I also agree those trying to fit the USA into eschatology results in a lot of conjecture, jumping back and forth between two covenants, and invoking duel covenant theology (John Hagee). While the presentation and theatrics of the Left Behind movies is pretty wacky, I am not so certain that their theology is too far off base. The gentleman above posted Matthew 24 and it's my belief the contents of that chapter gives away the greatest indicator of the end times sprint (fulfillment of the Fig Tree Prophecy, which is the re-born sovereign nation of Israel).

Revelation does show that the anti-Christ will seemingly fortify an existing multinational treaty with Israel, only to break the covenant 42 months after it's signed. I am not saying it's so, but it will be interesting to see what becomes of the Abrahamic Accords that were initiated by President Trump (will the future anti-Christ expand on this, and eventually all nations involved come against Israel?).

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You're making the same mistake the disciples did at first. God's Kingdom is not of this world. Physical Israel was the kingdom they thought was going to be established, but Instead the temple was destroyed. Physical Israel has no significance anymore.

To be fair some prophesies have duel fulfillment, but you'll never know for sure. You can waste a lot of time worrying or you can just be ready spiritually.

So you believe in replacement theology? Because the resurrection of a physical Israel is a pretty spectacular prophetic event after Jews were brought in to repopulate their old homeland (they had an ongoing minor presence there since the Roman Xth Legion destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, of course).

UTExan said:

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So you believe in replacement theology? Because the resurrection of a physical Israel is a pretty spectacular prophetic event after Jews were brought in to repopulate their old homeland (they had an ongoing minor presence there since the Roman Xth Legion destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, of course).

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Short answer yes. Although I don't rigidly accept any ism.

The Jewish religion is in open rebellion to God, and have rejected the one and only savior.

TxAgPreacher said:

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UTExan said:

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So you believe in replacement theology? Because the resurrection of a physical Israel is a pretty spectacular prophetic event after Jews were brought in to repopulate their old homeland (they had an ongoing minor presence there since the Roman Xth Legion destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, of course).

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Short answer yes. Although I don't rigidly accept any ism.

The Jewish religion is in open rebellion to God, and have rejected the one and only savior.

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I can't go there. Ezekiel 11:19-20 has God's promise to remove the "stony" (legalistic) hearts of Israel to give them hearts that seek God. Earlier, starting in verse 14 they are promised restoration to their homeland (which the Romans renamed from Judaea to Palestine).
And God promises that in the Millennium, Jesus will rule the earth from Jerusalem with Jews spiritually teaching Gentiles (Zech. 8:16-23).
Romans 11:29 tells us God's gift and his call are irrevocable, and there are plenty of other verses telling how God will redeem His stubborn people not for their sake, but because of His promises.
In short, salvation is a function of God's character, not our misguided behavior.

I think there's confusion to suggesting that all of these prophecies were for "Israel", where Israel means a certain group of people by ethnicity or whatever.

There's another issue with suggesting that Jews today are anything like Israel of old. This seems to be a continual historical error, that people look at contemporary Jews around them and project that backwards onto the Judaism of the first century. They're not. What we have today is Rabbinic Judaism, which is more or less a direct descendent of Pharisaism. But St Paul was a Pharisee, and remained a Pharisee, never stopped being one. Jews today are theologically incompatible with St Paul. The "Jewish" religion of the first century is closer to proto-Christianity than it is to Judaism today.

At any rate, Ezekiel's prophecy was at least to some extent fulfilled, as Judah was restored. This is the whole tension at the time of Christ, the temple was built and rededicated, but the presence of the Lord never entered. They'd regained the land, but they were still in exile. We also need to be careful to guard against a modern idea that prophecy is like a linear thing, I say this will happen, then when it does the prophecy is fulfilled. It's different from that in the scriptures, where fulfilled means filled up - it can apply on multiple levels, in different ways.

As for God restoring his people, again, not all who are of Israel are Israel. All Israel shall be saved, that doesn't mean anyone can just say "hey, I'm Israel" and have it be true. There's an intermingling of a lot of different concepts here.

Zobel said:

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Some good examples - imagine a person five hundred years from now trying to parse "Luke I am your father." Or, "Beam me up, Scotty." Here's a gut check - neither Vader nor Kirk ever say those lines. Those are pop culture paraphrases that aren't in the script. Or another common one, "heigh ho, it's off to work we go." Check yourself - it's "home from work." But we all know that the dwarves sing that, and its Snow White. Can you imagine trying cross reference a quote that literally doesn't exist but is presented as if it did??

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All Mandela effects that prove the permeable multiverse

bigcat22 said:

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Speaking of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), Jesus told the crowd that all would happen within their generation. You could make a strong argument that by 70AD and the fall of the temple, all did happen within that generation.

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Prophecy to me tends to be cyclical: it repeats. The Roman Holocaust, the Nazi Holocaust, repeated pogroms in Russia and Europe, the Crusades, etc.
But what are we to make of Ezekiel 38 and prophecies of an Asiatic/North African alliance coming against Israel to plunder it? Fire certainly has not fallen on the coastlands as he prophesied. In Daniel we see an Antichrist figure setting up his image in Jerusalem and this certainly occurred during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. It does not mean it won't happen again. But for the reasons that much prophecy has not been fulfilled, I have to dismiss preterism.

UTExan said:

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bigcat22 said:

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Speaking of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), Jesus told the crowd that all would happen within their generation. You could make a strong argument that by 70AD and the fall of the temple, all did happen within that generation.

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Prophecy to me tends to be cyclical: it repeats. The Roman Holocaust, the Nazi Holocaust, repeated pogroms in Russia and Europe, the Crusades, etc.
But what are we to make of Ezekiel 38 and prophecies of an Asiatic/North African alliance coming against Israel to plunder it? Fire certainly has not fallen on the coastlands as he prophesied. In Daniel we see an Antichrist figure setting up his image in Jerusalem and this certainly occurred during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. It does not mean it won't happen again. But for the reasons that much prophecy has not been fulfilled, I have to dismiss preterism.

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Anything can be twisted to kind of fit a prophecy... doesn't make it true.

TxAgPreacher said:

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UTExan said:

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bigcat22 said:

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Speaking of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24), Jesus told the crowd that all would happen within their generation. You could make a strong argument that by 70AD and the fall of the temple, all did happen within that generation.

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Prophecy to me tends to be cyclical: it repeats. The Roman Holocaust, the Nazi Holocaust, repeated pogroms in Russia and Europe, the Crusades, etc.
But what are we to make of Ezekiel 38 and prophecies of an Asiatic/North African alliance coming against Israel to plunder it? Fire certainly has not fallen on the coastlands as he prophesied. In Daniel we see an Antichrist figure setting up his image in Jerusalem and this certainly occurred during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. It does not mean it won't happen again. But for the reasons that much prophecy has not been fulfilled, I have to dismiss preterism.

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Anything can be twisted to kind of fit a prophecy... doesn't make it true.

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Well, Jesus was born in the fullness of time and when he presented as the Messiah, l am sure many teachers of the law would answer similarly. I would look at Daniel, Revelation, Ezekiel, Matt. 24, etc to discern the times we are in now. For instance, the digital silencing of alternative voices we see now indicates a time coming when only one narrative of reality will be allowed. Which is why the Bible is so dangerous to the powers that be.

IMO, The new Babylon is Dubai. I was there in 2013 and although magnificent and possibly the riches city in the world, It is soulless and cold. The new Abraham Peace Accords Trump put in place strengthens that position. Also, Biden can't kill that deal, America was just a broker, the deal was between Israel and UAE. We are sending 35 latest and greatest fighter jets to UAE for protection against Iran.

Israel is a physical place where Christ walked and where Christ will return. That is what the scriptures teach.

America has murdered millions of unborn babies and will taste the wrath of God but only after she has serviced his purpose and that relates with the physical Israel and its welfare.

1000 yrs is a day in the life of God. Now, forgive my spelling and my memory but wasn't Judah punished by God with the force of the Babylonians because of the sins of Manasseh as prophesied by Isaiah. That wrath happened over 100yrs after the forecast. The other tribes that made up Israel were already defeated and carried off by the Assyrians.

America is not mentioned in Revelations but has certainly helped set the stage for the main players in the Middle East which is center stage.