How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?

3,221 Views | 61 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by anaag75
$240 Worth of Pudding
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AG
And what brought you (or back to) faith?
NotAGiantBagOfWater
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I wouldn't say I'm fully Christian again, but I do think that there probably is a God, and I believe Jesus was a real man, divine or not I'm not sure. I personally feel like there is just too much evidence of design to be anything else. I was also convinced by sort of the prime mover arguments. Science was never able to provide a satisfying explanation of that to me. So the need for a prime mover plus what looks like design to me leads me to believe in a prime mover/designer, which I think probably fits the definition of God.
Martin Q. Blank
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Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
I've started and deleted multiple responses to this.

Before we go any further, would you care to add any more or otherwise clarify your point/intent?
Martin Q. Blank
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Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened." In which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, or "back to faith" in your words. So to answer your question "How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?" I'd say zero.
NotAGiantBagOfWater
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A former atheist doesn't have to belong to your particular faith martin.
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened." In which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, or "back to faith" in your words. So to answer your question "How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?" I'd say zero.
So would you say the odds are better that you've misinterpreted the scripture or that Jesus/God will deny the salvation of those who turn back towards him?
Martin Q. Blank
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NotAGiantBagOfWater said:

A former atheist doesn't have to belong to your particular faith martin.
Thanks. I'll be sure to pass on your note to our Bishop of Force Conversions.
Duncan Idaho
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Former atheist. After spending time researching and understanding my cultural and genetic lineage, I am now a polytheist and follow the 10 true Gods of my nordic ancestry.
diehard03
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Quote:

Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened."

I'm not sure anyone agrees with your definition of "once enlightened"

brain no worky today
Martin Q. Blank
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SWC Ag said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened." In which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, or "back to faith" in your words. So to answer your question "How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?" I'd say zero.
So would you say the odds are better that you've misinterpreted the scripture or that Jesus/God will deny the salvation of those who turn back towards him?
What does Jesus denying salvation mean?

But maybe I'm wrong. We'll see if there are any on this board. In my experience it is extremely rare.
PacifistAg
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SWC Ag said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened." In which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, or "back to faith" in your words. So to answer your question "How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?" I'd say zero.
So would you say the odds are better that you've misinterpreted the scripture or that Jesus/God will deny the salvation of those who turn back towards him?
I immediately thought of the parable of the prodigal son. The son walked away from the family, but the father welcomed him back with open arms and a grand feast. I'll take that interpretation.
ramblin_ag02
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Does lapsed and agnostic for about 5 years during college and just after count? Maybe it's just us fundamentalists, but I thought it was pretty common for people to grow up, get disillusioned, reject it all, and then eventually return to faith
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Livewire82
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Crashing due to addiction. Recovery brought me to actual spiritual experiences that had eluded me most of my life prior, even as a 'believer' in my early days. That shattered my atheism. I am still pretty ideologically agnostic, though am much less dogmatic and live a much more spiritual life than I ever have.
Zobel
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AG
+1, same here.
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chimpanzee
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+2

I wasn't raised fundamentalist, but my parents were, they're an odd pair to say the least with varying degrees of lapsing, returning, relapsing and moving around all over the place.

Suffice to say I was left to my own devices spiritually for large stretches and was more just lazy about it than even bothering to be agnostic.

The idea of theology actually seemed odd to me, that there could be any kind of academic/scholastic rigor to religious belief. I picked up along the way that it was supposed to be personal, spiritual and moving. All that's well and good, I suppose, but I'm a tough nut to crack from those angles, so much so that even the cute girl that invited me to Breakaway didn't get me in that particular groove.

My early impressions of the RCC were pretty negative, informed by the usual derisive one-liners. Not caring enough to dig into the history, I didn't know ecclesiology from a fishing rod, so it came as a big surprise when, at the first Catholic mass I attended, they said the Nicene Creed, which I knew from my Episcopal days, and which I said right along with them out loud.

That was a cool moment, made me start reading and listening more.

Rocag
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AG
It's very common for someone who was raised in a religion to transition to a "non-practicing" member of that religion and then back to a "practicing" member. My gut is that this more accurately describes the trope of people "leaving" and then returning to their religion as they get older for most cases.

Not to say that people don't sometimes fully reject the religion they were raised with and then go back to it. That certainly does happen in every religion you can think of, not just Christianity. It's still the case that most people in the world follow the same religious faith they were raised in.
diehard03
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Rather than having this be some strange thread....to ramblin_ag, Zobel, etc...what's your interpretation of Heb 6:4 and it's application here?
Star Wars Memes Only
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diehard03 said:

Rather than having this be some strange thread....to ramblin_ag, Zobel, etc...what's your interpretation of Heb 6:4 and it's application here?

Yes, without context at least, that does sound like it's saying that apostasy is an unforgivable sin.
diehard03
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My personal thought is that the flaw in the interpretation is the assumption that anyone who believes they are saved have experienced all the things that the author writes there.

To me, if you remove that assumption, it seems to uphold the reformed doctrines of Irresistible Grace and the Preservation of the Saints (in the converse, I guess)
ramblin_ag02
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diehard03 said:

Rather than having this be some strange thread....to ramblin_ag, Zobel, etc...what's your interpretation of Heb 6:4 and it's application here?
There are a lot of different ways to see the issue with "competing" Bible verses, and all of this played out in Church history without satisfying reconciliation. On the one hand you have verses like this one in Heb 6 and the one in 1 John Chapter 2 coupled with the Novatianists and the Donatists that all think to some degree that apostasy is unforgivable or maybe only forgivable after severe and strenuous pennance.

OTOH you have the parable of the prodigal son and Jesus' admonition to forgive seven times seventy times coupled with the Catholic and Orthodox belief in God's infinite forgiveness and mercy for the penitent.

I don't have a definitive solution to this. At the risk of sounding like a mystic, I felt I was called back to the faith. I figure if God didn't want me back He wouldn't have called me back.
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diehard03
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I think that "I don't totally know but this is how I parse it all out" is perfectly acceptable here.

We don't always have to have deep theologically theses for every topic. If we are all honest anyway, we all accepted a faith with some "risk" and we reconcile that risk as we go.
PabloSerna
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This is how I pretty much would label myself:

1968 - 1986: Cradle Catholic (birth - HS)
1986 - 1990: Agnostic (College years)
1991 - 1993: Atheist (Spiritual wandering)
1994 - 1997: Agnostic (Searching)
1997 - 2009: Born Again Catholic! (deep dive into history, bible, books, Order of Preachers)
2009 - now: Activist Catholic (trying to live out my faith in my family / community / career)

+++

What brought me back? I couldn't shake a feeling I had as young boy, as an altar server at a mass one time while attending Catholic school - Christ the King (CC Texas). For a moment, as the priest held up the host during consecration - I felt a wonderful, joyous feeling I knew to be Jesus. Hard to explain, but I just knew it. I was never the same.

During my wandering years, no doubt brought on by being a young father, fighting my role and responsibilities to my family, I would lose myself playing video games and feeling sorry for myself. I would justify spending my free time with my still single friends and partying with them like I was some kind of club hopper. Only once did I put myself in danger with another woman - thankfully nothing happened, but as Jesus explained, I did sin in my heart. At the time, my wife and I were not married in the Church - civil marriage (1988). I am sure the reason was that I was not fully committed.

At my lowest point spiritually, around 91-92, I seriously doubted the reality of God all together. However, one Sunday we started attending a new parish in South Austin - San Jose Catholic Church. A certain priest, shook us from a spiritual slumber when he said - "If you have not validated your civil marriage in the Catholic Church, you are living in sin and should not present yourself for communion." My wife and I knew what he meant, both of us having attended Catholic school. We had to make a choice then and there. Stay in the faith passed down to us from our parents or leave it.

We looked around a few times, other denominations, but we both felt more comfortable at San Jose CC, it was the people. Me, being half Irish and half Mexican, but growing up in Corpus Christi - it was custom to go to mass early on Sunday, then go get menudo, visit family, and watch the Dallas Cowboys. Like clockwork, we did this almost every Sunday. My wife grew up in El Paso, and did the very same thing - including the menudo! Then it was the experience I had as an Altar Boy. I couldn't leave without a better understanding. So I started searching and this led me back to the Church and in 1994 we validated our marriage on May 24th.

I still have the book the Pastor of San Jose CC, Father Kirby, gave me when I showed up one day with a list of questions about the nature of God. He told me to hold a moment, went to his room and returned with a commentary on The Summa (by Saint Tomas Aquinas). Told me, read this first and then we can talk. By 1999, I completed my year of inquiry as a Lay Dominican and took my vows in the Order of Preachers - I had fully returned with a vengeance and have never looked back!

God is great!!

+pablo



Zobel
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I think the critical word is "to restore". St John Chrysostom reads the more literal "to make new" - "ana" + "kainizo" which maybe you've heard when Jesus says "new" wineskins.

St John says -


Quote:

Renew them, he says, unto repentance, that is, by repentance, for unto repentance is by repentance. What then, is repentance excluded? Not repentance, far from it! But the renewing again by the laver [i.e., baptism]. For he did not say, impossible to be renewed unto repentance, and stop, but added how impossible, crucifying afresh.

To be renewed, that is, to be made new, for to make men new is of the laver only: for (it is said) your youth shall be renewed as the eagle's. But it is of repentance, when those who have been made new, have afterwards become old through sins, to set them free from this old age, and to make them strong. To bring them to that former brightness however, is not possible; for there the whole was Grace.


He then that baptizes a second time, crucifies Him again.

But what is crucifying afresh? Crucifying over again. For as Christ died on the cross, so do we in baptism, not as to the flesh, but as to sin. Behold two deaths. He died as to the flesh; in our case the old man was buried, and the new man arose, made conformable to the likeness of His death. If therefore it is necessary to be baptized [again], it is necessary that this same [Christ] should die again. For baptism is nothing else than the putting to death of the baptized, and his rising again.

And he well said, crucifying afresh unto themselves. For he that does this, as having forgotten the former grace, and ordering his own life carelessly, acts in all respects as if there were another baptism. It behooves us therefore to take heed and to make ourselves safe.



craigernaught
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Maybe Hebrew 6:4 is just wrong.
Frok
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Reading through it over and over it sure reads like a warning against apostasy to this particular group of believers.
TresPuertas
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Maybe some atheists on this board were born in China or North Korea, but I'd say most were "once enlightened." In which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance, or "back to faith" in your words. So to answer your question "How many former atheists/agnostics on this board?" I'd say zero.


God never turns away from us. That's kind of the whole theme of the Bible. So, I'll go ahead and say I wholeheartedly disagree
diehard03
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Quote:

Reading through it over and over it sure reads like a warning against apostasy to this particular group of believers.

I don't think so. It's an odd warning in the middle of building up who Jesus is, his authority, if it's just about apostasy. Hebrews is more like Romans than the other letters addressing specific concerns in that church, imo.

Again, reformed lens, but it seems to be more of a setup about how powerful "tasting the heavenly gift" really is.
Aggrad08
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craigernaught said:

Maybe Hebrew 6:4 is just wrong.


It's amazing that this simple idea just doesn't occur to and can't be entertained by Some people.
Zobel
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It's kinda weird to pose that. Wrong implies some external standard. We could say, maybe we just disagree. I'm not sure anyone here has the footing to levy a "wrong" decision on the text.

I think it's more likely that translating the word made new as restored carries some unintended presuppositions that the original text doesn't have.

There is a difference between something being restored to former status and something being made qualitatively new. There is a choice made between those two in translating the word.
Zobel
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AG
Sorry for the barrage of follow ups. For example though. If we use the word restored, what is being restored? Status? Standing before God? "Going to heaven"? A qualitative thing about them?

There's a lot of presupposition that can be there about what the author means.
$240 Worth of Pudding
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AG
Waiting for Martin Q. Blank to chime back in since he's the one that lit this fuse in the first place.
Really want to hear his interpretation as well as the point he was attempting to make by posting that in response to my question.
Martin Q. Blank
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SWC Ag said:

Waiting for Martin Q. Blank to chime back in since he's the one that lit this fuse in the first place.
Really want to hear his interpretation as well as the point he was attempting to make by posting that in response to my question.
https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3175288/replies/58490349

Also Heb. 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, 'They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.'
11 As I swore in my wrath,
'They shall not enter my rest.'"

12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Why?

19 we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
diehard03
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Whats your criteria for determining that they've been "once enlightened"?

How do any of us know we are "enlightened"?
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